Wednesday, March 4, 2009

Fishbowl DG Chapters 17-20

92 comments:

LaurenB2009 said...

Why do you think Dorian destroyed the painting and thus himself?

EricL2009 said...

So was the picture always beautiful and Dorian actually did age?

Lauren L said...

Lord Henry likes to hear the sound of his own voice. His quotes make people think beyond what they really mean.

SarahE2010 said...

Do you think that if Dorian had not committed so many sins during his lifetime, that he would have become such a mangled man when the painting was destroyed?

DrewB2009 said...

LaurenB-I think that he couldn't stand looking at himself anymore and how he has changed. It seems like he finally faced reality which caused him to ruin the painting.

KendraS2009 said...

Lauren: I think that Dorian finally just lost it and went crazy inside and he could not handle it anymore. I think he also could not handle looking at the ugly painting of himself anymore. He had thought that it would show the "good" things he did, but when it did not, he got really frustrated.

KaitlanW2009 said...

Lauren B: I think the hate just kept building for Dorian and the painting, and finally Dorian just lost control and destroyed it. He couldn't take the pain of looking at his real self anymore.

SarahE2010 said...

Lauren: i think he destroyed the painting because he finally couldn't take it anymore. The burden he felt by the painting finally consumed him

Wilberry09 said...

There was really no sensible way to deal with self-destruction, but ultimately Dorian's painting meets it's demise because of Dorian's own self destruction and self-decay.

LaurenB2009 said...

Eirc: I think that Dorian did stay youthfull and the paiting did change just beacause we know that others see him staying young and Basil's reaction to the painting show the change.

RickM2009 said...

Lauren: I believe Dorian realized that by being good, he is acting hypocritical to who he has become. He destroys the portrait out of frustration, the frustration that he cannot regain his innocence.

KendraS2009 said...

Sarah: I do not think he would have become quite as mangled as he did, but he still would have aged and become very old.

Lauren L said...

did the book ever say what henry looked like?

AdrienneB2009 said...

Rick: What makes you think Dorian hypocritical?

RickM2009 said...

Sarah: I think the mangled Dorian happens as a result of his sins, and Dorian became the portrait that had been affected by his sins.

LaurenB2009 said...

Sarah: I agree that Dorian couldnt take it anymore but do you think he knew that destroying the painting would also end his own life? Did he want to kill himself?

KaitlanW2009 said...

Lauren L: I don't remember the book telling us what Lord Henry looked like, but I could be wrong.

SarahE2010 said...

Lauren L: I don't think that the book ever said what he did look like. I always picture him as the governor in Pocahontas

Lauren L said...

I agree with Taylor. Shallow people and societys view of beauty will never change.

Pat said...

I think the painting was actually Dorian Gray because it was reflecting everything he did. The reason Dorian lived his life through a painting was because he was so obsessed with image and how other people saw him. He was a symbol for how his society viewed him making him a piece of art work rather than an actual person.

LaurenB2009 said...

LaurenL: I dont recall ever reading what LH exactly looked like. We hear a lot about his social status and his personality but not his looks. Why do you think this is?

EricL2009 said...

Lauren: So what is that significance of us not knowing what LH looks like?

KendraS2009 said...

Lauren L: I do not think that the book ever told us what he looked like, but I always thought of him as being very attractive. Not as attractive as Dorian though.

Lauren L said...

Maybe Henry is jealous of Dorians innerbeauty. What did wilde never describe the other characters?

SarahE2010 said...

Lauren B: I actually don't think that Dorian realized that the painting would also physically destroy him. I think he may have realized that it was destroying him physcologically though.

JakeF said...

Lauren
i would agree with Drew and others in that he couldnt take looking at the picture anymore because he fianlly was fed up with how disgusting he truly was not on the outside but on the inside.

KaitlanW2009 said...

Adrienne: I feel Dorian is hypocritical in the fact that beauty is all that is important to him in the world, yet he himself is truly hideous. He pretends to be a beautiful, perfect person, though his inner self is ugly. So ugly that it torments him in everything he does.

JakeF said...

Lauren
i would agree with Drew and others in that he couldnt take looking at the picture anymore because he fianlly was fed up with how disgusting he truly was not on the outside but on the inside.

Knicastro said...

Do you guys think that the painting could have changed? He kind of got excited and looked at it too soon, but if he would have waited would it have become beautiful again?

RickM2009 said...

Adrienne: One instance comes to mind... It was very outside Dorian's character to decide to not seduce the innkeeper's daughter. I believe Dorian expected to see a positive change in the portrait after that, but there wasn't one. The act was hypocritical, and his reaction was frustration.

DrewB2009 said...

LaurenB-I think that he didn't really care anymore about living. He was so overwhelmed with everything and couldn't take it anymore. If destroying the painting would end up killing him, I don't think he cared too much.

EricL2009 said...

Does it ever say if LH is beautiful? Does it hint at it?

KaitlanW2009 said...

Lauren B: I think it is ironic that the person who is most interested in beauty and perfection, other than Dorian, is never described to us in the book. Is Lord Henry himself a "beautiful" person?

LaurenB2009 said...

LaurenL: I think Wilde describes each character in a different way. Dorian has his outer-beauty, Basil has his inner-beauty, and Lord Hentry has his high standings in society. It it interesting that not one character is like the other in this sense. Why do you think Wilde would do this?

LaurenB2009 said...

Eric: I dont think Wilde directly shows that LH is beautiful. However the way he describes his personality and 'wealth' makes the reader almost assume he is good looking.

KatieO2010 said...

knicastro- I'm not sure if the painting would become beautiful again. The features may change to show his new goodness, but the sins of his past would not be erased.

Lauren L said...

WAIT>>>did wilde ever describe what Dorian looked like?

JakeF said...

lauren l
i dont know if he could be jealous of Dorians inner beauty because i dont think he has innerbeauty. I personnaly think he is a disgusting person on the inside.

KendraS2009 said...

Kevin: I do not think that the painting would ever have become beautiful again. I think that Dorian's crimes were to great to be covered up by beauty again. Just like Dorian tried to forget the crimes, he could never really fully forget them, and the scars will never disappear from the painting.

Lauren L said...

Were phyical features ever described?

EricL2009 said...

Kevin: I do not think that the picture could have changed. the picture was what Dorian became and Dorian become this ugly creature and i do not think it could have changed.

KatieO2010 said...

Are any of the characters fully described? Even Dorian's description could have been more detailed. Maybe Wilde just wanted us to picture them as we wanted.

LaurenB2009 said...

LaurenL: Dorian was described as good looking within the first few chapters. Not alot of actual descriptions are given of Dorian or any of the other characters though.

SarahE2010 said...

Kevin: I don't think it would has become holistically beautiful again, but i think one bad thing on the painting would be cahanged. I think Dorian would have to commit more acts of goodness to completely change it

Pat said...

Drew- I agree Dorian was fed up with the painting and that’s why he tried to destroy it but I don’t think he knew destroying the painting was going to kill him. I think he was just caught up in the moment and failed to see the painting reflected his life. I think he thought the painting was a false image of him and by destroying it he was going to get rid of his sins.

DrewB2009 said...

Kevin-Throughout the book the painting seemed to change based on how Dorian was acting. This leads me to believe that the painting would have become beautiful again so I think Dorian should have been more patient and not destroyed it so soon.

Lauren L said...

For fishbowls why dont we have the presenters and then everyone else is a discusser and make the tables one big circle?

LaurenB2009 said...

From Inner-Circle: Who truly is the bad guy in the book?

Lauren L said...

So the definition of true beauty in this book is undefineable!

KaitlanW2009 said...

Which characters are good and bad? Are there good and bad characters? Or are all the people in the book merely people who sin, and make bad decisions? What was Wilde's point in not distinguishing who's good and who's bad?

RickM2009 said...

LaurenL: I too don't remember an actual physical description of Dorian himself, but the physical features of the portrait were described. Unless someone can find a specific example of Dorian being physically described, that's a good catch.

KendraS2009 said...

I would say that Dorian is definetly the bad guy. True he was influenced to become the guy he is, but he Lord Henry cannot be blamed for Dorian's actions. Dorian had a choice to become who he wanted to be and he chose his lifestyle.

KatieO2010 said...

Kaitlan- i think Wilde did not distinguish because, there are no evil people, just as there are no good people. If we do not fit the definition then we cannot be that thing. It is not so simple as good or bad. Moral or immoral. Wilde states this in the preface.

DrewB2009 said...

LaurenB-I think that LH is the "bad guy" in the book because he is the person that changes Dorian. Yes, Dorian gave in when he was tempted but LH was the guy who brought up the temptation.

LaurenB2009 said...

Kaitlan: Everyone in this book has a flaw in one way or the other. Maybe is Basil wasnt so protective over Dorian, he wouldnt have lost his innocence and fallen into sin so easily. In this book and in the world today I think no one can be completly good. We have all hurt one another in one way or another. Since we are all sinners I think our view of good has been altered to go along with the way our society works. Today we know everyone does wrong so for some reason in has become okay for us to sin and hurt one another with little consequenses.

EricL2009 said...

Lauren: The definition of true beauty is within the person and for each person to show and dtermine for themselves. True beauty is within the holder of themself. I agree that true beauty is undefineable.

KendraS2009 said...

Drew: I sitll think Dorian is the bad guy. He was the one weak enough to give into the temptations of LH.

LaurenB2009 said...

Drew: I agree with you but shouldn't Dorian have found a way to resist LH's temptations?

SarahE2010 said...

Do you think Wilde is making a statement about the debate surrounding good vs. evil? If so what is he saying?

Lauren L said...

QUESTION: If Dorian were to blame one person for the way he has become who would he blame???

LaurenB2009 said...

Kendra: I agree with you that Dorian is the one at fault, not Lord Henry. Dorian could have stopped Lh's influence but he chose to let LH take away his innocence.

KendraS2009 said...

Lauren L: I think that Dorian would have blamed Lord Henry. LH really used his influence over Dorian to tempt him and overall turn him into a bad person.

SarahE2010 said...

Lauren L: I think he would blame Basil because he is the creator of the portrait., and the portrait was the source of torture for him. However, I think he should blame LH because he imposed all of his ideas on Dorian. And Dorian was stupid enough to believe all of them.

EricL2009 said...

Lauren: I think that Dorian would blame Basil. Basil was the one who createdthis portriat and started everything. If this picture was not created then LH would not be able manipulate Dorian. I would blame Basil, then I would blame LH.

KendraS2009 said...

Dorian just wnat along with whatever Lord Henry said or wanted him to do. He did not resist him in the slightest.

Pat said...

I think this book is showing how society killed Oscar Wilde. This book was to prove that anyone could have been in this situation and society distorted Wilde’s actions to make him look like the devil. In the end I think his statement was you can’t change society’s views and their views end up owning people’s lives. That is why he died in the end because it showed that society drove him to his grave. Society’s influence killed his individualism so it gave him no reason to live his own life.

Wilberry09 said...

Is it possible that Material beauty is infinite and inner beauty is sacred? alsoooo it is known that the relation between Dorian and his painting was that the painting was an actual representation of Dorian's inner beauty but do you think his inner beauty had become so decayed that he felt it necessary to destroy the painting as a manifestation?

KendraS2009 said...

*went

LaurenB2009 said...

SarahE: I think this book is a great example of good .vs. evil. The ideas of temptation, sinning, and selling one's soul define evil. Basil's character is one of the good examples who can actually see the bad in the world and stay away from it. I think that in the end, even though Dorian is destroyed, good triumphed over evil. Dorian got what was coming to him. Do you think good or evil won?

KatieO2010 said...

Lauren L- I dont think he would blame Lord Henry. He is his mentor, Dorian was created by Lord Henry. I do not think he would blame him. Though he surely should. I think that Dorian would blame everyone but himself and LH. He is not the type of person to take the blame upon himself.

KaitlanW2009 said...

Lauren L: For some reason I feel like Dorian would blame Basil. He seemed to blame everything on Basil before he killed him, he never let LH take the blame. I don't think he would take the blame upon himself, because I don't think he realized before his death that he himself could have turned everything around. He was still selfish, and would have blamed his best friend before himself.

EricL2009 said...

Lauren B: I think that evil won this battle. Two people are dead from this painting. The evil(LH) won in this epic battle of greats.

KendraS2009 said...

I agree that Dorian would have in no way blamed himself. It would have been anyone's fault but his.

LaurenB2009 said...

Why do we assume that there are homosexual feeling in this book? If we didn't know about Wilde's life would we still feel like the book had gay relations in it?

RickM2009 said...

Will: I'm not sure I would use the same words, but I would agree that material beauty is cheap and hollow in comparison with inner beauty, which is truly valuable. I believe the portrait is a manifestation of the material deterioration that results from Dorian's tainted inner beauty.

Lauren L said...

I believe Dorian would blame Basil because he drew the picture. Dorian would not be a leader or smart enough to understand that the way he is is not a single person but society in general.

SarahE2010 said...

Lauren B: I think evil won because LH is the only main character left alive. He is very manipulative and will probably "create" another Dorian Gray.

Will: I think material beauty is subjective, and inner beauty is sacred. Material beauty can be bought, but I think inner beuaty must be learned and earned.

DrewB2009 said...

Lauren-I think that good triumphed in the end. By Dorian realizing what has happened to him and destroying the picture, I think that good finally won in the end. If Dorian was never punished for how he acted or realizing how he has changed then I think evil would have won.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah/Lauren- So if everyone dies, it means evil wins? What about in Hamlet?

KendraS2009 said...

Lauren B: I do not think that these characters were gay so much as there infatuation with one another is just weird.

KatieM2009 said...

Lauren L- I think that he would blame himself for what happened. It is his fault that he allowed society and other people around him to influence his ideas. I think at the end of the book Dorian finally decided to take responsability and say yes this is my fault and I did this all to myself, no one did this but me. Yes, Henry was the one who was giving him influences and yes Basil was his creator, but Dorian was the one who allowed the things to happen to him and take over his life.

LaurenB2009 said...

Kendra: I agree. If I didnt know the history behind the book I dont think I would have ever read so much into the book to noticed anything gay about it.

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: well everyone doesn't die. LH is still alive. I think thta symbolizes evil winning, because personally I can't stand this character. But I think in this book, as in Hamlet, if all of the people die I don't think either win. I think that would mean that is just is a new beginning, a fresh start if you will.

KendraS2009 said...

Lauren: I do not think that I would have thought of them as being gay either, but I still would have noticed their obsessions with each other, especially in the being of the book.

LaurenB2009 said...

Kendra: Like you said it would be just weird =)

Lauren L said...

:P ;-)

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- but everyone doesnt die in hamlet. Hamlet's friend survives. Is it the survivor who determines who the victor is? Good or evil?

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: I think it would have to be the survivor because they can observe what happens to society post-event. SO the survivor must be the one who determines which one wins

DrewB2009 said...

LaurenB-If Wilde was not a homosexual I still would question some homosexual feelings in this book. Basil's obsession for Dorian seems to be a little over the top. I'm not saying he is gay, but I definitely question it. Also, LH and Dorian both like each other so much that I question that friendship as well.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- Ok. So. The survivors determine who wins. It doesn't matter how everyone else dies? Also, do you think that LH will start his cycle of influence again? Do you think he will plant different thoughts in someone's head? In my mind, LH is pretty much the devil, it fits, thats just what I think about him. What do you think?

KaitlanW2009 said...

Lauren B: I agree with Drew, the characters are way over the top obsessed with each other. Whether Wilde was gay or not I would still question it.

mollyp2010 said...

katie: I think its an interesting idea to ask if evil wins in this book. Ultimately I think that It could be argued either way. Lord Henry in my opinion, pretty much embodies evil in this book, and he was the one that caused Dorian's death. Dorian though had also become an evil man, and because he died, it could be argued that it is a new beginning, and evil has gone away to give way to something new. Also, responding to some of Lauren's thoughts, I was conflicted for much of the book wondering if these people were homosexual or not. In the end, I dont think that they were, but I wonder why Wilde wrote the book in such a way that the male characters are so close. In our lives, their behaviors would be considered homosexual, however nowhere does it say that they are gay, and they have partners of the other sex. I have to believe though that Wilde's background did influence the relationships in the book and the characters actions toward each other.