purple people eaters!
Do you think Ophelia commited suicide, or that she drowned on accident?
did ophelia really have a choice with what she did?
Do you think Ophelia is really crazy? Or is it partially that she's being dramatic like any teenage girl?
How are we seeing the symbols of three being destroyed? How are the father son relationships changing?
Why do you think Gerturde told Claudius about Hamlet killing Polonius? Why didnt she protect her son?
Ophelia was definetly suicidal i do not believe that she accidently drowned
in the movie, ophilia went crazy when she started air humping on the floor. STRAIGHT UP CRAZY BIONCA!
Molly: I believe Ophelia committed suicide, despite the mental state she was in, she wouldn't have drown by accident and was coherent enough to know life from death.
I think she fell in the pond or whatever and when she could have struggled and tried to get out she gave up. So I guess it started as an accident and ended as suicide.
I think Molly that Ophelia comited cuicide because it seemed to me that she was acting in the tone of having nothing to live for. Now that she has no one to guide her then she thinks she is better off dead then alive.
i think Ophelia's death was an accident. She was so crazy she really did not know what she was doing. She accidently drown herself because she was so confused and did not really know what was going on.
KaitlinW- I think that Ophelia is truelly crazy. She has lost all her male figures in her life. Her father who meant so much to her. She is not just being a dramatic teenager.
Molly: I think that she killed herself. Everything was going wrong for her and the last scene we see with her she is going insane and we can tell she has lost all sanity. I think she thought her only way out of her situation was suicide.
laurenb: i think she told cladius because she wanted to warn him about his seriousness, and show how far hamlet is willing to go
Molly: Probably a combination of both. When it describes her death it says she just sat there until she sunk, and I think a part of that is because she didn't have the will to pull herself out or to try.Kaitlan: Yes, I think she is really crazy. Teenage girls are more "the world's out to get me" and asking for attention, but I think Ophelia truly couldn't handle the hurt.
So is Ophelia stronger than Hamlet because she was willing to commit suicide when Hamlet is too afraid of the unknown of death??
Kim, all the father son realationships seem to be falling appart. Thus the number three is being broken.In a previous discussion we said that three was realated to a triangle, when one of the fathers is killed, this has broken the triangle. Therefore, destryoing the peace.peace is being broken.
Lauren B: I dont think gertrude really had a lot of respect for Hamlet after he was so stern with her despite the fact that he's her son. Also, I think she recognizes that Hamlet isn't exactly stable, and maybe some consequenses would be good for him
Wil: I think Ophelia had a choice but she really did not know what to choose. She was not in a mental state where she should be making big decisions.
was Ophelia really coherent in her actions, or was she under some spell cast by her own misjudgment and ignorance?
Lauren: I think Gertrude told Claudius because she would have been a suspect in the killing if she didn't tell anyone.
I think Ophelia committed suicide because all the influences in her life died or betrayed her. Since she was influenced by all these different people she couldn’t stand on herself when they vanished from her. I think this is why she committed suicide.
Kim: So far not only the relations of three but every relationship in this book is falling apart if it hasn’t already been destroyed.
Ya I agree with the people that are sying that is was on purpose and it was suicide becasue I think she fell in then she did not want to be aliv and have to go on with life without someone being there and telling her what to do. No one told her to not kill herself so she did. At this point in her life it was better for her to kill herself.
Molly: I think she did it on purpose because she couldn't live with herself anymore. She had become so crazy that she didn't know what to do or who to turn to for advice because she had no male figure in her life anymore until her brother came back. I don't think she had any motive to live anymore and believed this was what would be best.
Mackenzie: I disagree. I think that Hamlet was stronger because he was willing to try to pull his life out of its downward spiral. Ophelia took the easy way out in ending her life.
LaurenB: Gertrude isnt loyal to hamlet because Shakespeare portrays women as incredibly fickle. SHe always will side withthe man who will bring her the most security and wealth.
Mackenzie: That probably wasn't Shakespeare's intent, but I think you make a good point! Hamlet is too afraid of the unknown and Ophelia embraces it wholeheartedly.
Mackenzie, I dont think Ophelia is stronger than Hamlet, in fact i think she's a lot weaker. Hamlet is living with his insanity, where as Ophelia only stood with her for a few days.Hamlet is continuining on living, commiting suicide seems like the easy way out. I dont think Hamlet wants to take that way. Hamlet was able to kill Polonius and not feel bad, so he should be able to kill himself withought fear.I dont think Hamlet fears death anymore.
Does this allude to anything tied in with our own personal lives? There is obviously a motif of learning to be yourself tied in with all aspects
MollyT- So what do you think shakespeare is trying to show with these parallels being broken? What peace is being destroyed?
i think that suicide plays a huge role in hamlet, suicide is the inevitably destruction of a person and in relation to Ophelia she felt deserted by those that were close to hear and saw it as the only way out.
Rick: I agree. If/ when people found out, Gertrude would get in trouble right along with Hamlet because she knew about it. She was saving herself from getting in trouble by telling Claudius about the murder.
Will: I think Ophelia is so caught up in everything that is going on that she is willing to tell anyone whatever they want to her just so she doesn’t get too involved. We have seen her turn on her son time and time again. Like a lot of the characters, she is beginning to act and speak before thinking about the consequences to her actions.
Mackenzie: I don't think Ophelia is stronger than Hamlet just because she might have killed herself and Hamlet didn't. If anything that is a sign of weakness because she has given up on her life while Hamlet continues to press forward. Yes Hamlet might be scared of killing himself but that doesn't mean he is weaker because of it.
Ophelia in my opinion is definelty not as stong as Hamlet. Hamlet and Ophelia both have no one to talk to or lean on but Hamlet still makes decicions that he thinks are good and Ophelia doesnt.
Yet, Hamlet was originally pretending to be crazy, and I'm not sure he can tell the difference between his act and his own mental state anymore. I believe Ophelia truly went crazy.Also, the only reason Hamlet is still living with himself is because of his fear (the to be or not to be speech).
once again that may relate back to our own personal lives, many children and teenagers have not learned to think before they commit an action...
This kind of ties to what Wil talked about, but I think that Hamlet is losing himself through all this revenge/death goop. He used to value his religion and morals and now it seems he has thrown everything that was important to him out the window. When he looks in the mirror and sees the person he has become, will he be able to live with himslef??
I would say the peace that existed before the play even began, it all started with the death of Laerties's father.That would be the first father son realationship being broken. Which spurs conflict, the book actually begins with the aftermath of Hamlet's fathers recent death. That's the second one.The peace that is being destroyed is that of simple every day living. Looking at the book as things go on, and with more deaths, realationships are steadily broken and falling appart. And sanity is being tossed out the window.
Wil: I think that the message is suppose to be to always be yourself and that we will always be looking out for ourselves and that we will do anything even committ the biggest sin, death.
Going through the motions of the suicidal idea. I think that Hamlet is not weak for choosing to stay alive. In fact I think it was a weakness in Ophelia that led to her death. She gave up on life, however Hamlet doesn't instead he readies to get his father's revenge in order. He looks at the acts of Fortinbras and how he is all gung ho about his life, and i think it prepares Hamlet to finally do what his father wants him to do.
Do you think after Hamlet hears about Ophelia's death he will become even more mad or do you think he truley doesn't care and love her?
Mackenzie, If Hamlet does indeed go through with avenging his father i dont' think he will be able to live with himself.just look at him now, he's downright miserable and close to going over the edge, Killing one more person (also having the weight of Ophelias death on his shoulders) can't do him any good.
I don't think Hamlet is afraid of death. I think he is motivated not to kill himself by taking getting revenge for his father. Then if he really wants to he can go kill himslef but he feels he has to finish his job first. Also, if he does kill his uncle, he might solve some of the problems in his own life.
and what a wonderful message it is, don't let ignorant people influence your actions, do what you feel is right and you will be rewarded...be impeccable with yo word
EricB: i agree that Ophelia is not as strong as Hamlet, but i think a lot of that is the way Shakespeare shows women. We learned earlier that he sees women as weak and and are easy to sin, so i think this characterization of Ophelia and Hamlet is him just carring on his portrayal of women.
Lauren: I think Hamlet loves Ophelia (which is why he freaked out at her when she allowed herself to be used against him), and her death will cause him to further loose his grip on sanity and deepen his hatred for Claudius and his determination on revenge.
Molly: I agree I don't think he will be able to live with himself! So do you think that Hamlet feels responsible for Ophelia's death? Does he feel sorry?
Drew: I concur i think that Hamlet sounds and looks strong but deep down he is a little boy and just scared of taking his own life away and maybe not going to the heavens. I think that he is scared of what will happen to him but wants others to think that he is strong, when really he is the most scared of all.
Kendra: I completely agree. Hamlet is so involved and motivated to get his revenge I think his own life is the least of his worries. Unfortunately Hamlet may be TOO involved and forget to protect his own life.
Lauren: I think that Hamlet will just fall deeper into his depression when he finds out that ophelia is dead. I really just think it was an act when he was so mean to ophelia.
Makenzie: I dont think that Hamlet feels bad, I think he is just saying, thats karma for going against me.
LaurenB: I think it will have some effect on Hamlet. I think he really did love her, he was just pushing her away knowing all of the drama that he would be causing trying to avenge his father. But i think her death will tkae back seat in his life, unitl he is done trying to murder Claudius.
Kendra: Why is Hamlet not afraid of death anymore? What changed his mind?
Lauren: I don't think Hamlet is even mad in the first place. I think he knows and has control of what he is doing. But I do think that Ophelia's death will effect him and he will be sad whether he shows it or not. If he once loved Ophelia then there is no way he would not be sad about it.
Mackenzie, I'm not really sure. If Hamlet did in fact regret Ophelia's death and in some way feel responsible for it, I don't think he would show it at all.By this point Hamlet seems so desencatized to death, that it doesn't seem like it would matter to him much at all.
I really feel like Lauren brings up a great point in that it is a chain reaction with selfishness. This all wouldnt have happened if the King wouldnt have been killed.
I think that once Hamlet kills his uncle he will feel a lot better. He can never really solve his problems, but it will help him. He will feel that he finally did something worthwhile.
Hamlet will not be able to find a so called light at teh end of the tunnel with this situation. I do not see anyway that he can avenge his fathers death and return to whatever normalcy existed in his life prior to the death of his father, the king.
LaurenB- I think that Hamlet did care for Ophelia. However the reason he wasn't able to show that was because he couldn't trust her. Whether or not Hamlet loved Ophelia is up to debate he is very good at hiding his feelings that he doesn't want to show to others.Does anyone else see this continued themes that Shakespeare seems to hide some of the characters feelings towards others? AKA Hamlet with Ophelia, and perhaps Horatio and Hamlet?
Mackenzie: Another reason why Hamlet isn’t fearing death is because maybe he feels that he has nothing left to lose so he's going to go out fighting till the last minute. He believes that killing himself would just be giving in to all his problem so he decides to keep on fighting and try to change his life.
Eric B: Are you hinting to us that this whole situation could have been avoided if Claudius was not killed? If he wasnt killed Hamlet could be normal?
Mackenzie: I do not believe Ophelia is stronger than Hamlet because: she is willing to run away from her problems. Hamlet is not afraid of death, and he is taking some major chances by taking such a long time to kill Claudius and creating a trail for Claudius to follow that would lead him to want to kill Hamlet.That was tricky to phrase...
Kendra: Do you think it's even possible for Hamlet to feel better, even if he kills Claudius? So much has been destroyed and he only holds onto life now because he wants revenge and because he's afraid of the consequences of suicide. Will Hamlet survive to the end of the play?
Kendra: Nothing like killing a family member to help you through your emotions...
I agree that selfishness started this whole process of everyone being in a downward spiral. Clauius was so greedy that he would kill his own brother for his own benefits.
Kim: Are you maybe suggesting that Horatio has feeling for Hamlet?
Since this chain of selfishness has been started when do you think it will end? Where is the chain of selfishness going?
Lauren- I don’t think Hamlet will be affected by this single event of Ophelia’s death. It seems like all these bad occurrences are going to all have factors leading him to go crazier. I do believe he loved her but Hamlets mind is losing what is most important to him. He is being corrupted by all these events.
Do Hamlet and Horatio have a special connection?
Kim: Death!dun dun dunnnn
I think Hamlet could feel better if everyone found out that his uncle killed his father. I don't think that killing his uncle would make him feel better by itself but if the public found out the truth then that would make all of his trouble worth while. He has spent so much time trying to show how his uncle and mother have done these terrible things (like making a play about it) so if the public realized he was right about all of it then I think he would feel better.
Hailey: It's possible that killing Claudus will finally put Hamlet over the egde in his craziness. I think though that Hamlet is strong enough to have made it this far and he will make it out alive in the end. After he kills Claudius, he will be king.
Eric: Maybe they're secretly brothers or something. OMG its like a days of our lives episode.
Mackenzie- haha who is going to pay the price for the selfishness? Will it be Hamlet fulfilling his tragic hero qualities?
Kim: I don't think the chain will ever stop. If you think back to the Story of Adam and Eve...when they originally sinned it never stopped from that point on. This story which has religious ties is maybe hinting that the selfishness and sin won't stop once is has started.
Eric: Maybe Hamlet and Horation do have a special relationship. So far Horatio is the only one who has stayed true to Hamlet. Why do you think this is?
horatio has learned to be like a brother to hamlet, i do not believe horatio would avenge hamlet's death just because of the fact that hes afraid of claudius
Pat: I agree. I don't think that Hamlet cares anymore. He loved her and its over. Now all he has is his drive to avenge his father. That is all he cares about and he will do whatever it takes to get there.
Is Ophelia Preggers????????
Kendra: Could Hamlet simply become king after killing Claudius? Could it be that easy?? I think someone could find out about the murder or Laertes could fight him for the throne.
Eric: I think Horatio is simply loyal to the son of the king he has served for so long. He also saw the ghost and hamlet told him part of his plan, so he has more information about what is going on than everyone else.
If Laertes is so revengeful and doesn’t care to cover up Hamlet’s death, why is he going through all this trouble?
Eric: I think that Horatio might have been really close to Hamlet's father. I don't think Horatio is like Hamlet's best friend, i think he is an old family friend
people stay true to people that they like...he is the only one to be trustworthy and maybe this is this first sign of true love....maybe
Isn't Horatio proof that Hamlet isn't crazy for seeing the ghost? Couldn't that be their special connection?Also I think that Horatio is really the only trustable character in the story at this point. He has not betrayed anyone.
Lauren: Horatio is a true friend. True friends never leave or turn their back on you.
Anna: It’s a possibility but we will never know. This could have been another reason she killed herself. Getting pregnant out of marriage was strongly frowned upon back in those days.
Anna: If Ophelia was preggers is that why she killed herself she did not want to deal with raising a child by herself.
Pat: he is really mad about his dad... >: Oand he is taking a more direct route than Hamlet did (kind of like Fortinbras)
What are we seeing with Horatio then if he is the only true friend is he going to continue the cycle of selfishness?
Pat: i think Laertes is going through all of this trouble because he doesnt really have a plan to kill Hamlet, he just knows he wants to. Then, Claudius comes along with this plan on how to kill Hamlet, so i think Laertes just doesnt feel like coming up with his own plan.
It seems like Hamlet doesn’t have any close friends because of his selfish behavior. I think Horatio is just a fake friend for his own selfishness. I don’t believe that Hamlet has a true companionship that will be willing to revenge his death.
Eric: I would agree with Kim, they share the connection of both having seen the ghost. While he has been a minor character, he is the character I would have the most trust in if I were part of the story.
Eric: Yes that is what I was thinking. She probably thought at first that everything would be okay because her and Hamlet would end up together, but once Hamlet says that he doesn't love her then she realized that she is having a child out of wed-lock which is very frowned upon. Plus also the thought of her having a reminder of Hamlet with her always is something that she doesn't want to have to deal with
i dont think that ophelia was pregnant although they do make the reference of them having relations. Although i still believe that she drowned herself because she felt so alone and deserted by Hamlet.
Mackenzie: Laertes has no right to the throne. I think that he will try to kill Hamlet before Hamlet can get to the throne. I also think that Hamlet will end up killing Laertes before Laertes can kill him.
Do you think that it is possible that hamlet is Gay? Him and Horation do have a strong relationship as friends and Horation is willing to do anything for Hamlet
Anna, I don't believe Ophelia is pregnant. Though it is possible, the play never mentions it, though it implies the tow of them are together. It just seems to cloudy to tell.
Hamlet's mind may be transparent to us in this day and age, but do we truly know if back then is mind might be opaque?
there is just so much character build up around Hamlet that you dont want to hate him, but its soo easy to hate him for all his actions and thats why all his friends or companions are leaving him behind
What is the role of guilt in the play is it overwelming any of the characters? And does guilt overway selfishness?
Lauren, I dont' believe Hamlet is gay. Why would he have been with Ophelia?Maybe him and Horatio are just really good friends.
Was Hamlet just in the heat of the moment when he said those things to Ophelia or did he truly mean the things he said?
Kim: Ooh interesting point. Horacio is the only one who really knows that Hamlet got orders to kill Claudius from his father the Ghost. Is Horacio more loyal to the crown, Hamlet, or his own morals/what is right?
Lauren thats what I was trying to hint at. Is this a messgae people that are in love portect their loved one.
Kim: Guilt plays a huge role in the play. It seems that the characters feel guilt in an extreme way whether they kill themselves over guilt or feel absolutely no guilt at all.
How is Horatio at all selfish? If anything, I see him as the most unselfiish person in the play.
Molly: All other true friend betray each other why woul dHoratio be different. There must be some reason...
Lauren B: I think it would be possible because back then it was okay basically for men to be together.. it was a play we studied sophmore year but I can't remember which one where it mentioned men being together and there was no social issues. But I don't think that there is anything to prove that Hamlet is gay. Him and Heratio do not have a strong relationship because he has cut off all ties with the outside world.
LaurenB: I think it is possible for Hamlet to be gay. There are rumors that Shakespeare might have been gay, so he could have made Hamlet gay too. But if you look at the other side of it, Horatio could just personify the true best friend quality: Loyalty, which interestingly enough, is the one quality that the story is lacking
Seriously, when do Horatio and him share any deep moments? All Horatio does is be a good, loyal friend who is in service to Hamlet. I trust him most, simply because he is the "less deep" character, who is not mixed up in the selfishness of the everyone else. Yet, would we all still trust him if we knew what was going on in his OWN life? You never know....
Eric: Exactly what I was thinking! Maybe Shakespeare is saying that is doesn’t matter what the social rules of what is right and wrong can't stop two people from loving one another and protecting them.
I don't think that Hamlet is gay. I think that he truely loved Ophelia and that Horatio is just a loyal friend.
hamlet's mad crazy
I think Hamlet Is just plain crazy
Sarah: Then maybe Shakespeare uses Hamlet to help demonstrate what he feels. I agree there isn’t a lot of evidence to prove it and it could possibly be that Horatio is just a really good friend. However the only good things we have seen in the book are because of love, not friendship.
Horatio is not selfish at all. He is unselfish and willing to help Hamlet in any way he can simply because he is a good friend. Just because people are really good friends does not mean that they are gay.
How do we determine who is an is not considered "crazy"?
I think that Hamlet has and will always be crazy because he wants to look after his father legacy and will do anything to do it.
Is being selfish the same as being crazy?
just like how do we determine who is "normal"
there is no one definition of crazy...I really think that it depends on who is looking at the "crazy" person.
Lauren: It's not always about love though. In some cases like Gertrude and Claudius, it more about a lust for power and security than love.
Some one who does not kill other people, id consider that normal
Lauren: but then if you look at it all of the love realtion ships in the play are corrupt too. So is shakespeare saying that all relationships are corrupt in some way?Pat: I disagree. I think he knows exactly what he is doing.
I don't see the possibility for any love in this book, even Gertrude doesn't really love Hamlet because she is not loyal to him. It seems that there are only ALLIANCES for people to better their situations.
Taylor: You can't! Each person has their own deffinition of what crazy is, yeah Hamlet is acting really weird and in my mind is going crazy but their isnt a set of rules that makes him crazy.
its all about perspective yo....remember that....insane in the membrane, insane in the brain haha
The people that don’t think Hamlet is crazy, isn’t Revenge an act of craziness?
Taylor H: SO are you saying that soldiers aren't normal???
i think Gertrude has a lil dose of crazy too because u either need to be stupid or crazy to marry your brother in law 2 months after the death of your husband king.
Sarah: I agree with that. Shakespeare could be saying that all relationships have their flaws but it is how we react to those flaws and try to fix those problems that keep the relationship together. I don’t think any of the characters except Horatio get how to keep a good relationship with anyone.
I agree. You cannot really define who is crazy. Hamlet could be faking it. It is also just hard to tell and there is not one certain thing that makes people crazy.
Hamlet in my opinion is the best example of a tragic hero we have learned about this semester.
Pat: Kind of, I guess. I think that in the beginning Hamlet was only considering revenge because his father told him to. Now, he is totally consumed with revenge and that has made him crazy.
Pat: i think it depends on what tyoe of revenge you're talking about. If it is revenge for another person, than i think it is an extreme act of loyalty. But if its for yourself.....i don't really know what that would be. Maybe selfishness?
Anna:See how subjective it is??????I don't think Taylor was thinking along those lines though, more like murders.
pat: not necessarily, if you want to revenge someone's death, it just means you have a spiteful element within you...for example, if you were to own a platypus, and someone killed that wonderful platypus, you might want to avenge your platypus right?
Anna: That's a completely different situation in regards to what is happening in Hamlet theres an intense amount of jealousy and hatred so there is alot of corruption amongst one another adn killing someone exemplifies the characteristic of crazy
Boton: What makes him a hero? what has he done that is so special?
Lauren: I agree, no one else seems to understand interaction between people.Eric: i think you're definetley right.
Gertrude is not crazy so much as just selfish. She married for security and for her own gain to remain queen. You do not have to be crazy to see what you would gain from marrying someone.
Wil: So are you suggesting an eye for an eye?
Sarah- Look at the other perspective though. The person revenging might think it is an act of loyalty but to others they are crazy
Eric: I dissagree, I dont think Hamlet is a Tragic Hero at all. He is royalty, but from what we have seen, he is not much of a leader, which a tragic hero is supposed to be. He is not prideful, as tragic heros typicaly are. I think we will not really know untill the end when Hamlet will (probably) die. How he dies is of utmost importance, if he realizes how he brought all of this down on himself, then, I will admit to Hamlet being a tragic hero. But I dont think that will be the case, I dont think he will realize it and therfore cannot be a Tragic Hero.
Taylor: for the purposes of this discussion, I would qualify a "crazy person" as you say as someone who has changed radicly durring the play. Hamlet, is hard to tell, we dont know if he's pretending. Ophelia's personality completly changed, making her crazy. We dont really know about Laerties, we only met him once before but I dont think he is, he only wants revenge. Wanting revenge does not make you crazy, though it can drive you to insanity as demontstrated by this play. I think him not wanting revenge would make him less than sane. For who would not want revenge? It is only natural. The true path to madness lies in the decision whether or not to take revenge.
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