Do you think that it was wise of Claudius to put in the poison pearl in the drink before he was sure that Hamlet would actually drink? Would this avoid Gertrude's death??
ya ya ya
Michelle: I think that if Claudius would've waited for Hamlet to agree to drink to add the pearl it would've been much more obvious what he was doing. Gertrude's death seems unavoidable if he wants to stay stealthy.
michelle: This would have avoided it, but also made it more suspicious. He could have also included Gertrude in the plan. She may have objected, but it is quite obvious that women in this story are easily manipulated.
alrite chumps lets do this! LEEEEEROOY JJEEEEEENKINSSSSSS!!!!!
Shelli- I think that Gertrude would have died anyways because she was leading herself to a personal downfall by betraying Hamelt time and time again. I feel that she would have gone crazy or committed suicide, still leading to her death.
I think selfishness and minipulation
Katie: But if Gertrude had never drank the wine, how would the truth had come out about the treachery?? Do you think it was necessary for Hamlet to have Gertrude drink it?
Michelle: I think Claudius has just been more and greedier for power as the play goes on and this leads to him acting before he thinks. Therefore he poisons the wine and doesn't prevent others from falling into the trap set for Hamlet.
Rick: In telling gertrude about the plan he risks gertrude telling Hamlet about his plan to kill his son. Plus this will also make gertrude wonder why he wants to kill Hamlet. Nothing good would come of telling gertrude
Anna: If Claudius has gotten away with so much so far, are you sure that he wouldn't at least take some precausions (sp?) with the crown that has taken him so much to earn??
But Rick do you think that women in this story are so weak that Gertrude would consent to her husband killing her son? I think that by the end Gertrude stands up for herself a little more and would definately go against Hamlet's murder.
Do you think Gertude's refusal to listen to Claudius (and not drink from the cup) shows strength or weakness? She could be finally acting by herself OR she could be stupidly ignoring "good counsel"...What do you think?
Shelli- Eventually someone would have cracked. Whether it was Claudius because he became overwhelmed with guilt or Hamlet would finally explode, the truth would be revealed.
michellem: i think it was necessary for Claudius to put in the pearl ahead of time so he wouldnt raise any suspision
I really think that selfishness is in the four front of themes for the play. It seems that no one would could trust anyone but themsleves, and no one looked out for anyone butr themsleves.
Do you think that Hamlet knew the whole time about the poisen in the cup?
I think Claudius putting the peal into Hamlets drink before he knew he would drink it created huge dramatic irony because it would have prevented Gertrude’s death. I believe he did this just out of carelessness and it was an accident because I don’t think he could have predicted the incident.
i think that it was necessary for gertrude to drink the poison. Without that event hamlet would have never realized that laertes had slashed him with the poison causing him to realize all that had been.
Shelli: Hamlet didn't have Gertrude drink it. She drank the wine of her own accord. Hamlet didn't know that the wine was poisoned and her drinking was a toast to Hamlet's victories early on in the duel.
Rick: I agree. If he included Gertrude, she would have lived and Claudius probably would have stayed alive while still keeping the throne.Lauren B: But don't you think that, even after all that Claudius has done, that he will still be cautious?? Because now he is dead.
In the black and white version of the movie, why do you think the director has Gertrude look at the wine as if she knows it is poisoned? Does he do this to show her killing herself in a way?
I personally think that Gertrude's death was just bound to happen. First of all because Hamlet is a tradgedy and also the play has had a sort of pattern if someone betrays Hamlet they end up dying.
Does this selfishness allude to anything within our own personal lives? the entire play circles around life lessons.
I think that the Queen drinking when she was told not to shows strength because she is finally standing up for herself. Throughout the play the women all do what they are told and this seems to be the only point where a woman stood up for herself. Shakespeare could be saying that women should listen to men and do what they are told because the only time a woman didn't do what she was told she ended up getting killed.
Eric- I think Hamlet was suspicious of Claudius and his actions but did not know for sure. Because Claudius has already stabbed Hamlet in the back multiple times, I don't think Hamlet had trust in his intentions.
Anna: If Gertrude had known and not told Hamlet, how could you say no good would have come from it? The King, Queen, and Laerates would have survived, and Hamlet, the madman, would have been destroyed. Just playin a little devil's advocate...
I think that Hamlet did no all along that there was poisen in the cup because he said he didnt drink during the fight which is odd because everyone else is willing to drink whenever.
Shelli: Claudius is being cautious with his crown. Instead of stopping Gertrude for some reason he allows her to drink thus killing her. He didn't let his emotions get in the way just so that he could keep his crown.
KC: I totally agree with you. If he would have waited to put it in till he gave it to Hamlet it would have made everything suspicious. Claudius did not do a good job of guarding eh cup to make sure Gertrude would not have touched it,
Eric: I think that is a very big possibility that Hamlet knew of the king's plan all along. I think he didnt know about the poision but he knew that the king has been planning to kill him so he tried to avoid anything that could lead to his death.
haily: when Gertrude drinks from the cup is no reflection on her personality or charatcer, she is just drinking from a cup, she's not arguing with him she is just taking a sip in celebration for hamlet
EricL: I think that Hamlet might have been suspicious about the pearl in the cup, because why wouldn't Claudius just give it to him, but I think he was too busy with the fencing match to analize it deeper than suspicion.
Lauren: In all of the versions I kind of had a feeling that Gertrude knew the cup was poisoned and she was going to die. She might have sacrificed herself so that her son wouldn't dring the poison and die. Maybe she felt guilt from her actions and thought this was the easiest way out.
Anna: Which ended up killing him too. Trying not to be suspicious ended up causing his downfall.
I think one thing led to another with the actions Hamlet took. I believe things ended the way they began.
Mackenzie: I do think Claudius could make the case to Gertrude that Hamlet's death would be justified even if she didn't know that Hamlet was trying to kill Claudius himself. She consented to Hamlet being exiled, if Hamlet slipped up again, isn't there a good chance she would have consented to his death?
yeah i mean, was it like a normal gesture to drop a pearl in the wine? ...Id be freaked out
Will- I think this play is a way for Shakespeare to show humans in their worst state. It shows that humans truley live for themselves and no one else. Yes, we do things for other people, but can anyone truely live a totally unselfish life?
Yeah what do you guys think when Cladius offers him the drink during the round but Hamlet says no let me finish the match first. Do you think that he knew of cladius' plan? or was it pure coincidence?
Rick--yet, when Gertrude found out that Claudius was trying to kill Hamlet (through her own death) she tells Hamlet what has happened, thus ensuring that he would take action against Claudius.I don't think he included her in his plans because she could have told Hamlet.
Rick: You are very right, but at the same time, Gertrude could've stopped Hamlet and then the Kind would probably kill her anyways, so then Hamlet would kill Laertes and the King to avenge his mother's death...but I'm just guessing. I can't be sure that any of this would actually happen.
Why was the poisoned cup necessary if they had the poisoned sword? Does that show that Gertrude’s death was planned?
LaurenL: I agree with what you said but do you think this is the end of the long cycle of sin that has been going on throughout the whole book? Or win the few remaining people find something to screw up also?
taylor-I sort of got the impression that hamlet may have been suspicious, but also that he didnt want anything to influence his performance in the match, even though it would only be a sip of wine.
Was Claudius so concerned with his reputation that he would be willing to sacrifice his queen? Do you think it was better that Gertrude died? Through her death everything was revealed and made right.
Pat- Although the cup was not necessary, there is no motive for Gertrude to be murdered? Where do you see the motive and from who?
Pat: The poison cup was a precaution to have just in case Laertes could never stab Hamlet, or if the poison didn't end up working. It was there as a back up.
Pat: That is a very good question. I think they wanted to make sure Hamlet was killed either way eithyer by the wine or by the sword. Also I feel like if the king was a suspect of Hamlet's murder he could direct the attention towards the poisioned sword. Plus if Leartes didnt get a chance to cut Hamlet with the sword the pearl was a good backup plan.
Mackenzie: I believe that Gertrude needed to die in order to make everything right in the end. Like the middle circle said, everyone that was corrupt died so technically it was a happy ending. Everything was laid out on the table after Gertrude died
pat: the cup was needed just incase leartes didnt get a strike on hamlet. if hamlet just dominated leartes, they needed a plan B
Lauren B-It would appear that this could be the end of a long cycle of sin at the end of the play, however it could be argued that sin never really stops. I think that shakespeare may have beeen trying to show that people are inherently evil and they are going to sin. So even though we dont know what happens after the play, I dont think its the end.
Hamlet went so far as to not even care what was going to happen. The problems went to far and there was no pulling out. I think Hamlet could have prevented all this by not doing the play because only himself knew about his fathers death.
Yeah the cup was the initial plan to kill hamlet meanwhile the sword was merely a backup plan because he refused the drink of wine
Katie: I think their could be motive for her murder if she knew more then the reader is believed to also know. If the queen knew of Clauduis' actions and intentions to kill Hamlet she could have the power to do something about it. Maybe Claudius believed it would just be easier to eliminate her as well.
Mack -- I think Claudius is one of the most selfish characters in the play, and I think he does value his reputation over Gertrude. After all, he valued the throne (his reputation...) over his brother's life...
Katie- I’m not sure if I believe Gertrude’s death was planned. I just thought it was weird how they needed the cup in the first place. Maybe some other motives were present.
Also, I don't think there would be any other way the play could end. If any one of those people did not die they would be left just as crazy/sad/etc as Hamlet was at the beginning and it would start all over again...
Lauren- This is true, Claudius seems to be down the road of elimination of all people that will get in the way of his plan.
trying to break social norms
Why dont you think Claudis tried harder to stop Gertrude from drinking the poison?
Haley, Anna: What if, what if...Pat: The poisoned cup was only necessary if Hamlet was winning the fight. It would have been an easier murder to believe if Hamlet died during the fight, but the cup was insurance.
Lauren--if he tried harder, his murder plan would be revealed. Then Hamlet would avoid death and everyone would know what he was trying. He values his reputation too much and he is too selfish
I think that Gertrude had no idea that the cup had poisen in it because after she drank it she said the drink the drink and really was oblivious to the drink before hand.
Lauren- As it is being said in the inner circle, he can't stop her from drinking to safe himnself. If he stops her then it will be obvious that he knows what is going on.
Lauren: If Claudius does try harder to stop her that makes it very suspicious on why she should not be able to have a drink. Thats raises the idea that it could be poisened.
I think it would have been too obvious that he wanted to kill Hamlet if he stopped Gertrude from drinking the wine then Hamlet drank it and died. If he really wanted her to survive he would have ran over and knocked it out of her hand!
If Gertrude had known there was poison in the wine would she have still drank and commit suicide like Ophelia?? Did she want "sweet release" too?
Why did the Queen think good of Claudius when he didnt care about his brothers death and instead just moved on in? She is dumb!
I think that Claudius should have guarded the drink better and not have let the drink fall into the wrong hands.
I think if Gertrude knew the wine was poisoned then yes, I feel she was trying to commit suicide because she knew everyone was going down and things were going to explode, but I can also see her death being totally accidental.
Rick: I was going to say the exact same thing haha. There are so many situations that could happen. We can only be sure of what Shakespeare wrote.
Lauren: I think she was blinded by everything and thought that she would look strong by moving on. If she had acted like Hamlet then the people would think they were being lead by someone weak and by getting re-married it could show that she was strong.
Mackenzie: I think that at this point the queen didnt care what happened to her when everyone around her were dropping like flies. I think she did know the wine was poisoned and then decided to kill herself. Or do you think that this was karma coming back to Claudius?
Lauren: again with the selfishness thing. Maybe Gertrude was out for herself just like everyone else and by marrying the king she was able to stay in the palace and not become a poor old widow.
I believe that cladius is just simply a fool the man creates nearly a FOOLPROOF plan yet still manages to kill nearly everyone including himself. He could have done so many things differently to accomplish the one thing he set out to do, kill hamlet. Do you guys agree that he was a fool or was he simply the victim of his own plan?
Why would Gertrude commit suicide? I feel like she is oblivious and easily pleased/distracted...
In Romeo and Juliet I felt sad when they died but in this movie I had no sad emotion to anyones death.
katiem: well if gertrude knew the cup was poisoned why didnt she drink all of it? cduz after she drank there was still enough for hamlet to force feed it to claudius.
Eric: If Cladius had gaurded the drink I think it would have blown his cover and someone would be suspicious at why he was protecting the drink.
Is it possible that death may be an analogy for a new beginning, just as in the beginning with the weeded garden?
Hailey: Gertrude wants to be a part of the festivities in both mental and physical actions. If she drinks the wine, she is like the king and can give her love to her son... for different reasons than Claudius did however.
Hailey: Maybe Shakespeare makes Gertrude appear like an oblivious bystander throughout the book but he does this to show how everyone has an inner personality that feels just like every other one of the characters.
Lauren L- I think you didn 't feel any emotion because we never truley had that emotional connection to the characters in the play. We knew them well but we never felt that emotion that is felt when reading Romeo and Juliet.
a chance for a clean slate...
Michelle: I completely agree. I just don't think she knew it was poisoned...
Taylor: I think that Claudius is a fool. He kills his own brother for goodness sake. He minipulates other people and turns everyone in Hamlets life agasint him and deffinately deserves to be killed by Hamlet.
Will-I think that throughout history, and forever it seemslike, that death is not only seen as the end, but also as a beginning. Maybe at the end of the play, it is a new begginning for the people that are still living.
Will: I agree. With Fortinbras comes a new era and a new ruler. Like in the last movie we watched with the removal of old King Hamlet's statue it resembles renewal.
Tying things back to selfishness, do you think Gertrude knew she was going to die because she knew everyone was going to die and she did not want to be left alone when everyone was gone? and she did not want to kill herself because she did not want to go to hell? This was the only way she could have innocently died.
Taylor: I think it was a little of both. Claudius is a fool to try to do such a public murder when there are so many people/elements to mess it up. I think because he is an idiot he became a victim of his own plan.
Will: it was a new beginning for Fortinbras. After they "weeded" out all the corrupt/depressed/screwed up characters it made room for him to come in and take over
Will: I agree that death could be a new begining. If you go off the symbolism of religion, once we die our lives are forgiven and we start over in heaven, technically.
Taylor: Claudius was a fool. He was so focused on gaining power and keeping that power that he based all of his decisions around his throne and not by using logic.
Wil: are you refering to death bringing everyone down to the same level?
Sara- That is a great point. I agree and think that Gertrude took this opportunity to take herself from the world with out suffering the consequences of going to hell.
Amen to that, AP :)
Adrienne: I think death does bring everyone down to the same level. No matter if you are a king or a very poor person, we all end up dying and going to the same place in the end. Death is a reality check for everyone, no one can escape it.
thriughout the story we develop this image of fortinbrass to be a bad guy who wants to get revenge and wants to kill people who get in his way but then in the end he is the only one that does a selfless act. he gives his ememy a militarial burrial.
Thanks Hailey :) I'm glad you agree
it seems as though everyone is thinking about themselves, this relates back to the power of spoken word within our own lives, portraying that the words you say may give the impression that you are a selfish person
Katie: But she didnt escape going to hell by killing herself. Suicide is a sin in the eyes of God.
In this play is Shakespeare implying that revenge is an evil and selfish act or a prideful and noble act to their fathers?
KCH: This all just ties back to "Don't judge a book by it's cover" :) Claudius seems like the good king but he's actually a traitorous murder. Fortinbras seems like a power hungry war lord and he is the new good beginning in the end.
What will Heratio do now that everyone he cared for is dead?
KC: why do you think the Gibson version left out fortinbras and hamlet giving him his "voice"?
I agree with lauren that death brings everyone down to the same level, however some would argue that not everyone is going to the same place in the end, so really are all deaths equal?
Doesnt everyone have those flaws that Hamlet does?
Katie: I think Horatio is going to become the right hand man of Fortinbras since he knows Denmark more than Fortinbras does. If this doesn't work out however, I think that Horatio will travel as a scop, telling the true story of Hamlet to all of Denmark to hear.
Pat: I think he views revenge as an evil act because in his play revenge never stops. When one person gets revenge another person must in return get revenge on that act. It starts a never ending cycle of evil and revenge.
anna p: im gna judge u by your cover, silly willy ninny muggins
LaurenL: Everyone has flaws, it what makes us human and relates everyone. This play is about how we accept and act on those flaws and how not to react to others flaws.
If got fortinbras there earlier then do you think he would have prevented all of this?
Molly: I think that Shakespeare would argue that they are, remember that scene in the graveyard? Hamlet talks about how lawyers and jesters end up in the same place, buried in the ground no matter who they were or how important they were in life.
EricB: I think it depends on HOW much earlier Fortinbras arrived. But he was coming to invade so would he have been merciful to Hamlet if he died with the rest of the Danes?
Eric--I doubt it. He wouldn't know what was going on or what was poisoned. Maybe he would've delayed it but these people are bent on revenge...
Lauren L- Yes, everyone has the flaws of Hamlet. Hamlet is to be one of the easiest Shakespeare characters to connect with. Everyone experiences moments of selfishness, grief, or let our emotions take control.
Molly made the point that whether he avenges his father it doesnt however bring him back so whats the point?
Revenge is a fake way of trying to change the past. It does not work, there is no way to change the past but their is a way to choose your own future and Hamlet did not do a good job on picking the best option.
Eric B: I think that if Fortinbras would've gotten there earlier he would've just killed them all. Because such a tragedy occurred Fortinbras didn't attack the castle. He didn't have a government to overthrow. It was basically handed to him. Either way Fortinbras went to denmark to seize it.
living well is the best revenge....right?(thats a reference to seinfeld) :]
mollyp: That's a good point. To an extent death brings all to the same level but I see where you think that if we dont all go to the same place then we are not equal. We all die, but we dont all go to the sam place. So maybe death doesnt bring everyone to the sam level. It also depends on how you view death. Do we fear it, look forward was waits, dont believe in it...etc?
I think Hamlet wants revenge to honor his father. While revenge doesn't change the past, his dad is in purgatory until he avenges him, so that is changing something.
I think their was love for ophilia but anger got the best of him.
Eric: I don't think Fortenbras would have stopped it. I think he would have seen how twisted the whole situation was and would know that it would have to unwind by itself.
it all comes down to karma
Hailey: How do you know king Hamlet is in purgatory??
And would Hamlet killing Claudius really 'set King Hamlet free'??
That is the only way he came to talk to Hamlet and to tell him the truth.The ghost tells him he is in purgatory...
Hamlet knew from the beginning he was going to die so he gathered anger towards to make the pain of losing her less harsh.
Scelli: No I dont think that it would have set it free becasue its just another mudurer how does that set him free?
Shelli: I dont think Hamlet avenging his father would set him free from purgatory. Each of us lives our own lives and I dont think our actions can just be traded between one another in order to free us from our sinnful pasts.
And I'm not positive it would release him from purgatory, but the purpose of purgatory was to pay for your sins. Therefore, he was only there because he was killed so suddenly without having a priest forgive him.http://nfs.sparknotes.com/hamlet/page_60.html
EricL: I agree. I don't think that the murder would free his father from his ghostly state OR purgatory. And my name is spelled with an 'h' not a 'c' :)
Wouldn't EVERYONE be in purgatory then for all of the murders and trickery they performed? Or do they go straight to hell...?
Shelli: What trickery did King Hamlet perform?
It was suicide and murder because she also killed her baby inside.
Shelli--I don't think it would free him from purgatory (I misunderstood!) but he did ask Hamlet to avenge him and not to stand for such a corrupt person.
shelli-isnt that why everyone fears death? because noone knows what happens after we die...do we get a chance to make jthings right in purgatory or do we just go straight down?
why is he in purgatory?
I believe that Ophelia did indeed commit suicide she was at a point that the only way to get out was to kill herself. If she was indeed pregnant then it would be an illegitmate child that could not rule over denmark and i truly do not believe that Hamlet would be the most understanding of people to deal with teh situation.
Shelli: I think most of them would go to hell but the king wouldnt because he died sudenly and didn't have a chance to be forgivin.
Lauren- There is no hard evidence proving that Ophelia was pregnant.
I think Ophelia’s death was suicide because of Shakespeare theme he brought into the text. Shakespeare showed this theme through Hamlets To be or not to be speech
also, I don't know why everyone would not be in purgatory. Maybe because they were forgiven when they died....??? Take up the Catholics on that
I think Hamlet does love Ophelia and I agree with Sarah, and I also think that because he has so much going on in his life and the fact that she betrayed him made him very angry and he thought that because she did that she did not love him so he did not want to look like a fool saying he loved her when she was acting like she didnt love him. Then when she died he realized that he really did love her and he wished he had sdmitted it.
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