Friday, February 27, 2009

Dorian Gray Fishbowl - Chapters 13-16

Happy Friday Fishbowl.

135 comments:

Wilberry09 said...

oOOOHHHHHHHHHHH
I've been workin on the railllroad
allll the live long day
bum bum bum

Kim C. 2010 said...

So Dorian is trying so hard to forget the past... what do we think about this trying to erase the past?

SarahE2010 said...

I think it is pointless for him to try so hard to forget his past. No matter what, he is not going to forget everything that has happened to him.

shellim2009 said...

Kim: Erasing the past means forgetting all the bad things he's done... could this mean that Dorain is trying to turn over a new leaf?

RickM2009 said...

Kim: I think Dorian is trying to erase the past because he does in fact have a conscious, and he is re-discovering this now that he doesn't have Basil to act as a conscious for him.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Sarah: Why do you think he is doing this then? What is Wilde trying to convey through this?

EricL2009 said...

Kim: I dont think that anyone can erase the past. I belive how you erase the past in moving on and forgetting about what happened. Once you can move on from your past people will stop lookin at it and will start to realize that the past does not matter.

KatieM2009 said...

Kim: Yes I think Dorian is trying to forget his past because he has not had that solid rock to stand on in the past. I think he is starting to finally go crazy because he has not been his true self and he is trying to erase the past so he can possibly start over. Maybe he is trying to make things right

LaurenB2009 said...

Kim: I think Dorian is so disturbed by what has happned in his past that he wants to get rid of it. However I don't see him forgetting even if he kills Basil, and destroyes the paiting.

SaraB2009 said...

I agree with Adrienne, in that Basil was Dorian's conscience, and with Basil gone he can sleep well at night cause he does not have any more pressure on him from Basil.

kaytlinr said...

Kim C.- I think that Dorian is trying to forget everything about his past. It seems to me that everything that we have read and learned about Dorian hasn't exactly been good.

Wilberry09 said...

Is it possible that the admonishing beauty of the portrait as an original has skewed Dorian's vision of his own inner hatred, making Dorian ultimately more bitter and cynical?

SarahE2010 said...

Kim: I think Wilde is trying to convey a different side to Dorian that we haven't seen yet. I think he is trying to show that Dorian actually has a conscience, and that he is beginning to feel bad about what he he has done.

BrittneyW said...

I agree with Sarah he is trying so hard to forget the past, that it is destroying him. I think that what he is doing now is kind of ignoring the past that he had with his grandfather.

TaylorS2009 said...

Kim: I think that this could just be another part of Dorian's selfishness coming out. He knows what the picture looks like, and he knows that he is not beautiful. I don't think he really has a conscious because he is still just so obsessed with beauty that he is now turning to trying to fix the picture.

Kim C. 2010 said...

I think he is trying to erase the past to, by calling on the chemist to erase his problems. Does this suggest that Dorian expects others to solve all of his problems?

Lauren L said...

Wild thornberries....anyone remember that show?

TomB said...

it seems to me that Dorian has never grown up. physically, yes, but mentally as well, he never learned to rely on his own judgement, and always relied on basil or henry to guide him. in a roundabout way, he is discovering his conscious by eliminating basil as his word of reason

SaraB2009 said...

Relating back to the afterlife unit, do you think that Dorian will go to hell for his actions?

If yes, what level of hell, as in Dante.

EricL2009 said...

I agree with molly in that Basil did set him self up for disaster in that he created the picure and started Dorian on this crazy path.

AdrienneB2009 said...

Inner cirlce: if Basil is "God", God gave man choice. Basil can't choose what Dorian does. He may have introduced him to Lord Henry but Dorian acted upon a new perspective.

LaurenB2009 said...

Kim: I think Dorian is to afraid to solve his own problems. It seems like everything he touches turns for the worse and now he is pulling others into his problems.

shellim2009 said...

When Dorian sees the portait after he kills Basil, there is blood on one of the painted hands. "What was that loathsome red dew that gleamed, wet ande glistiening, on one of the hands, as though the canvas had sweated blood?" (p. 196) Was this splattered there? Or did it add itself just like the rest of Dorian's sins had?

Lauren L said...

I think Basils first mistake was telling Henry about Dorian. Basil described Dorian in such an amazing way and painted him with such beauty Henry had to have him.

RickM2009 said...

Kim: Dorian has been very resourceful when it comes to making the past disappear for him. He goes to the opium den to erase his mind, and uses a chemist to erase the body.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Tom: I disagree with you about Dorian growing up. I don't believe he has grown up at all. He is basically a child running around without a healthy conscious doing whatever pleases him at the moment. He has his moments where he realizes he has done something wrong, however he quickly dismisses it and "sweeps it under the rug".

KatieM2009 said...

Tom: I agree with you. I see the murder of Basil as Dorian's way of breaking free from the influence and he is finally growing up to be his own person rather than being influenced by Lord Henry and Basil. He has realzied that living life through other people has no substance and he needs to be his own person.

BrittneyW said...

I think it is interesting how the inner circle commented on Basil pretty much killing himself. I think in a way he did. He created this image in Dorian's mind that made Dorian so crazy and self-centered. It is almost like the creator is killed by the monster he created.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Lauren B: Why do you think Dorian corrupts everything that he touches? What does this say about Dorian as a person?

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: It is a possibility that the blood was splattered but I believe that it was painted on there like the rest. I think so because it was on his hand and that would be extremely coincidental if it just splattered there.

KatieO2010 said...

Sara- yes, I think that Dorian will end up going to hell. Wilde even references the vanity level of hell. Dorian will probably go to that level, though he did just betray the trust and love of a friend by killing him.

MackenzieL2009 said...

Eric: I think that Lord Henry had a bigger role in setting him up because Basil told him that Dorian could be easily changed but LH talked to him about his ideas anyway. These ideas then made Dorian realize his beauty and make the wish or whatever that made him start on his crazy path.

shellim2009 said...

Britty: Does that foreshadow any belief to God and his creations? Does that have anything to do with the fall of man?

KatieM2009 said...

Shelli: I think the blood that has appeared on the painting added itself with the other sins Dorian has commited thus far. The addition of the blood is showing that he has sinned and he will be punished for the murder of Basil. This act is one more thing that makes this painting ugly, also making Dorian uglier as he lives day to day.

shellim2009 said...

Anna: Do you think that Dorian will try to erase his past by altering the picture then? Will he change his ways, seeing the murder as finally too much corruption?

LaurenB2009 said...

Kim: I think Dorian has becomne so self-centered that he fails to see the wrong he is doing to the people around him. In a way I feel like Dorian is lost. He doesnt know what he wants in life. Everything he once wanted(youth) has now come to haunt him.

SarahE2010 said...

I disagree partially with Tom. I don't think that Dorian got rid of Basil to discover his conscience. I think he got rid of Basil becuase Basil disagreed with him. LIke he is a little kid throwing a tantrum because someone said he is wrong.

shellim2009 said...

KatieM: See my post to Anna because it is the same question I would ask you.

TomB said...

kim: yes, he has been running around without consciousness of his actions. but isnt that the way a child acts before maturing and breaking away from their parental influences? now that basil is gone, and the balance of his conscience, his humanity, is upset, he will "mature" in the sense that he will have to either develop a conscience on his own or succumb to the gravity of his sins

Wilberry09 said...

Shelli: going along with your point, it is possible that Dorian, as a non-artist could alter the picture, which may tell us that you cannot alter the outside beauty without altering the inner beauty...

EricL2009 said...

Is maybe LH creating and influincing Dorian in such a way to get back at Basil for him not wanting to paint a picture of him? Did LH destroy Dorian to get back at Basil?

EricL2009 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: As much as I want to think that Dorian will change his ways I truly don't believe so. If he was going to change his ways then you think that he would've started right after but he didn't, and he just did another bad act and blackmailed Alan! He still has a chance to fix his ways but I think that he has just too much momentum going that stopping now and changing his ways is impossible. And if he does try it will just spin out of control

MackenzieL2009 said...

Shelli: I think it was painted on the picture because Dorian now has (literally and figurtively)Basil's blood on his hands. I think it's interesting that Dorian can run around doing whatever he likes without caring about the consequences or his concience, yet when he commits the biggest crime of all he is finally affected. Do you think Dorian's concience is finally doing its job or do you think that he is just a little disturbed about killing his friend that makes that "thing" on the table?

shellim2009 said...

Will: So... in order to change you, you must first look inside your soul and clean the imperfections there? Is that what you're saying?

Kim C. 2010 said...

I think its really interesting how Society has turned its back on Dorian, to me it really shows that society only cares about beauty to a point. Once the beauty becomes tainted and soured, people seem to dump it off. Dorian is trying so hard to cling on to the people who used to be his friends, however he is a really short fuse, we see that when his personality and soul is questioned by Basil, he reacts in large fury and ends up killing his best friend.

BrittneyW said...

Shelli-I really don't think that Wilde meant it to have a religious connection. I mean God created humans, but we did not destroy him. So I think its different, but I see what you mean. I think with the fall of man, it was similiar to the fall of Dorian on a personal level and I could see like betraying your creator, but not destroying it. I don't know if this makes sense, but I don't really think of Wilde as trying to be religious or having connections to God.

shellim2009 said...

Anna: Do you think that even if he tries to change his ways he will be unsuccesful? Could something, or someone (Henry) get in his way of succeeding?

SaraB2009 said...

I agree with Sarah, on the fact that Dorian killing Basil could have been an act of selfishness. Basil was getting in the way of his beauty and created something that made him not beautiful, that Dorian had an urge to kill him because he did not like the way that Basil was making Dorian look. And after all looks are all that matter to Dorian.

KatieM2009 said...

Eric: That is a very curious point. I think that is a high possiblity with Lord Henry. Because we have seen multiple actions of selfishness through this story, I would not doubt Lord Henry to use Dorian for his personal gain to destroy Basil because he holds a grudge agaisnt him.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Tom: I do agree with you to a point however, I think that Dorian will just use someone else as his conscious and that he will lean on others to tell him what to do. This is evident when he reaches out to the chemist to help him figure out what to do about the man he murdered.

Anna P2009 said...

Eric: So you think that Lord Henry wanted to be painted but he was bitter that he never was?
If so then I really doubt that LH would know what his actions would truly do. I don't think that he would ever be able to guess this outcome. Yes maybe he stole Dorian from Basil as a friend to get back at him but I don't think that it was anything deeper than just wanting to mold a new mind.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- I agree with you about his murder being a temper tantrum or just a base instinct. I relate the murder of Basil to the moment that Hamlet kills Polonious. They both get rid of the body to attempt to rid themselves of guilt. They both killed in anger. And in Hamlet's case, it started him down a path that there was no returning from. Do you think Dorian will follow a similar path?

EricL2009 said...

Schelli: Going off your post to Anna I think that Dorian will not change the pciture. I see that Dorian is a follower and will only do what he is told just like Ophelia was... and I think that he will then go on that same path that she does and kill himself.

AdrienneB2009 said...

Kim: That's why I see Wilde in Dorian. He is his own destroyer whether he is simply being critical of himself or hurting those around him.

Wilberry09 said...

exactly! you must introspect and find the rough spots on your soul in order to better yourself as an individual, this also goes along with aestheticism because you cannot have outer beauty without inner beauty....this is the same with art, music, etc.

kaytlinr said...

Sara- I don't think that Dorian will go to Hell. Mostly because, to me Dorian seems more like a victim. Like we've been talking about for a while now, Dorian seems to be controlled by those around him.(Like Lord Henry)And I think that his actions are a direct reflection of what he thinks others want him to become. Yes, he committing these acts, however, I believe that it isn't really Dorian. And since it isn't really Dorian, there is no way for him to go to Hell.

SarahE2010 said...

Eric: Thats a very interesting thought. I think LH is definetley capable of that kind of manipulation. Personally, I never thought that LH liked Basil very much. I also think LH corrupted Dorian so much because he wanted to see how far he could push him. I think Lh (who thinks he some kind of scientist) wanted to determine man's breaking point.

Lauren L said...

Dorian has the characteristics of the devil but Dorian does not have the skills or power to be considered the devil. Dorian is not evil he is manily ignorant.

KaitlanW2009 said...

If you do think that Dorian is the parallel to Wilde what does this say about Wilde's view of relationships? Dorian killed someone who he appeared to be close to. Also, later in the book Dorian is speaking to Lady Narborough and says, "I have not been in love for a whole week..." What is Wilde saying about love? That it's meaningless, and easy to come by?

AdrienneB2009 said...

Inner circle: Dorian and the Devil is a valid connection. I echo what Kevin said.

Pat said...

People from the outer circle. Come in to the inner circle and talk with us!!!

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: If he does try to change then yes I think that people will get in his way. Or better yet I think that he will try to right all of the wrongs that he has done and run into James Vane. We have to keep him in mind because I think that James is Dorian Gray's downfall. Not himself or LH. I think that James will get his revenge.

shellim2009 said...

Kenzie: When you do something bad, you feel guilty as do most people. If you don't find peace in forgiveness for your bad deeds however, you will not find comfort in resolution. Dorian has done this for so many different crimes and wrong-doings that they have all finally added up. With this last crime, murder (one of the seven deadly sins and breaking one of the ten commandments) he finally is broken. A soul can only hold so much weight, and Dorian over filled his soul with terrible sins. Finally, he cracked under pressure.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Katylin: I disagree in a sense with you saying that Dorian is the victim. Yes he was manipulated by LH alot, however he has completely choosen his fate. He has choosen to hide his sins in the painting and to stay forever young, when he really could have chosen to grow old like everyone else.

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: I think Dorian is already on that path, and this act of murder just drove him further down the path. I think he has been on this path for a very long time, and I also think it will be the end of him. How do you think this path will effect Dorian?

BrittneyW said...

Anna-
I totally agree with you I do not think Dorian will ever change and I believe that will eventually catch up with him and cause his personal destruction.

SaraB2009 said...

I think anyone who can kill someone, can be related to the devil, because murder is a sin. I also think that since Dorian is so beautiful, it reminded me of Bedazzled because the devil was portrayed as beautiful, but was a terrible thing.

RickM2009 said...

Katie: You've drawn an interesting parallel. I believe Dorian's path will diverge from what we saw in Hamlet, and The Picture of Dorian Gray is a much darker/gothic novel. Whatever happens to Dorian, I expect it to come completely out of left field. At this point, I believe Wilde has the reader set up to predict Dorian being killed by Sybil's brother, but this is the last thing I expect to happen.

shellim2009 said...

Britty: But the only person who Dorian let see his soul ON PURPOSE was his creator, Basil. What the meaning of Basil's death then is I don't know, but I do think there is a connection.

MackenzieL2009 said...

Kim this is kind of a response to what you wrote, sort of. I don't think that Dorian has any friends. The people he would consider friends he has either ruined or is being fake with them. I think Basil was the closest thing he had for a true friend because he knew that Basil might understand the mystery of the portrait and showed the deepest part of his soul to him. But even then he ends up killing Basil and when he is dead Dorian considers him as a horrible thing that needs to be removed, not the friend he just murdered.

AdrienneB2009 said...

Sara: Dorian "sold his soul" for eternal beauty. Now he is hated for what he longed to preserve.

TomB said...

i think that employing the chemist is more an act of Dorian showing his darker, calculating side and his ability to manipulate resources rather than as an act of conscience. if a child breaks a vase, what would he do in order to delay being punished? he would hide the evidence instead of facing the consequences

KatieM2009 said...

Kaitlin: I think Wilde feels relationships are meaningless and he has never truley connected with someone so he didn't know what emotional fulness relationships bring to those who enjoy them. In Wilde's life he displays little attatchment to his relationships. He leaves his wife for a homosexual relationship and even in that relationship he does not show real importance to that connection with his boyfriend.

shellim2009 said...

Erick: (you get a K in you name since you put a c in mine:).
Do you think then that death is the only thing that can clean Dorian's slate? Doesn't the Bible say that even those who are on their death bed can still ask for forgiveness, and through the acceptance of Christ, make their soul white as snow?

Wilberry09 said...

Brittney & Anna-I definitely agree that he will not change, and this also gives some insight into the underlying messages portrayed by Wilde-he is saying that people are creatures of habit and it is extrememly difficult to break that habit.
oh oh, and I have a fun fact:
it takes 24 days to make a habit, and 48 days to break it!

Kim C. 2010 said...

Tom: Dorian hid his problem at first then he tries to push it off on someone else he isnt trying to face concsequences he is just trying to get rid of the problem.

KendraS2009 said...

I believe that anyone who kills someone else can be considered a follower of the devil but I think that it's a little extreme to directly compare Dorian to the devil. The devil is so bad that no one could ever be as bad as the devil.

AdrienneB2009 said...

Tom B: That is logical so I wonder why Dorian thought he could evade payment for his self- obsession even after warnings from Basil.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- I think that this path will lead beyond redemption. At this point, his path can lead only to more pain for others and more corruption for Dorian. I think the path will end with the deaths of others, deaths caused by Dorian, proably Sybil's brother. He's next. But Dorian will also die, I think. I think he will kill himself as a last selfish act, a way of getting out without fixing anything.

shellim2009 said...

Anna: But how will James know who Dorian is if all he knows him as is 'Prince Charming'? (Devil's advocate since I know the outcome)

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: (in reference to your question to Eric(k)) Yes I think that death will be his only chance to escape his fate. If he does ask for forgiveness before his death then yes I believe that his slate will be clean but that is also my belief religiously.

EricL2009 said...

Shelli its actually airick thank you, but I dont know if that would be the only thing that can escape him i just dont know if there is any hope for him since he will be manipulated by LH? Is there anyway he can save his soul?

TomB said...

kim: exactly. Dorian has never had the experience of consequences for his actions. now that he is faced with a problem which, as the blood on the painting shows, weighs heavily on his soul, he is faced with the first opportunity to change

SarahE2010 said...

Adrienne: I think Dorian thinks he could evade punishment because he thinks he is invincible. He knows any sins he commits directly effect the portrait, but they never touch him. He realizes he can do anything, and the portrait will take the blame.

SaraB2009 said...

How can a painting cause so much destruction and so many problems. I think that Wilde is saying in the preface that if critics keep picking apart things and people look so deep into art it will be the downfall of them.

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: You are forgetting that now James has seen his face. Before he had no lead except Prince Charming. Now he knows the face of the man his sister loved so it will be easier to track him down.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Tom: How do you see Dorian attempting to change? All I see is him finding different ways to hide from growing up and running from his problems?

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: thats a good prediction. I agree that Dorian will die. I think it will eithr be by suicide or murder becuase everyone hates him. I think it would really be ironic if LH murdered him becuase he realizes what a monster he has created.

shellim2009 said...

Anna and Aerickkk: We have to keep in mind that we don't know if Dorian can even die of old age... since he isn't ageing. However, if he goes to fix his soul, would he have to destroy it? Or would that destroy him? I do think LH will be over manipulative to the point where Dorain breaks down, but I'm not sure what will be able to save his soul in the end.

shellim2009 said...

Anna: Yes but he will be looking for someone who has aged... Dorian does not age! :o

MackenzieL2009 said...

Shelli and Sir Law (cuz I don't know what your first name is anymore...) Is Dorian even being manipulated by LH anymore? I feel like LH has finished watching him and changing him and now Dorian is the one manipulating and doing the damage to other people.

Lauren L said...

Create art fir yourself. Not for others. I think that is the most important message in the book. I agree with Sara; society is nothing without you!

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- do you think that LH thinks Dorian is a monster? I mean, Dorian is, essentially, LH. Plus LH views Dorian as an experiment, I don't think he would put an end to his fun. Do you think Dorian will kill LH? Will that be his final act? To kill his creator?

TomB said...

kim: it isnt a conscious change. Dorians actions have led him to a place where he will have to take responsibility or fall. he runs from his problems because thats what he knows, but now that his crutch has been the victim of his crimes, he'll have to stand on his own if he is to survive

TaylorS2009 said...

I agree with Sara that the whole point of this book is to tell people to stop looking too deeply into things like art. Over analyzing is what causes so much to fall apart. Like beauty in general, people end up starving themselves so they will be beautiful. I think that Wilde feels that when art is looked into so much, it loses it's luster and has absolutely no value.

BrittneyW said...

I really don't think that there will be anyway to save himself. I think he has been so caught up into it and that has pretty much destroyed his soul. I feel that as the inner circle discussed that in society you get caught up into everything and it will ultimately destroy you and it is hard to stop.

EricL2009 said...

shelli: I totally forgot that he cannot age... does this mean that he will live forever? If he can live forever,what would happen to him after LH dies? Would this be an Ophelia thing and he would committ suicide?

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: I never said that he will die of old age I still think that James will kill him. James just saw Dorian Gray. He knows what he looks like. He knows the never aging face. It's the face that he almost killed before but Dorian tricked him. Now he knows what he looks like and to not be tricked again.

MackenzieL2009 said...

Do you guys think Dorian will get a chance to redeem himself or do you think he is so corrupted the only peace he could ever have is death? and maybe not even then dun dun dunnnn

shellim2009 said...

Kenzie: But LH and Dorian are still friends. LH thinks Dorian is more of a specimine to examine though rather than a friend. He has said all throughout the book that he is fascinated with Dorian, and he just wants to see how fare Dorian will go. I think Henry still has an effect on Dorian, even though they are more equal than they were before.

KatieM2009 said...

Sara: I agree with you. I think that over analyzing different pieces of art and even people can create a downfall. In art, if people look too deeply into the meaning, it can possibly ruin the beauty of the painting or sculpture that was intended by the creator of the art work. If people are over analyzed by people outside of their lives then those people lose all control of the lives they are living. With the paparazzi these days following stars and the media analyzing every move they make, it creates stories and ideas that were never intended because the media takes things out of control by reading too far into situations. Wilde has made a statement in society by telling society to stop looking so deep and just enjoy what objects are placed on the earth for.

Wilberry09 said...

art can definitely be useful...think about shoes or cars, both of which can be beautiful, and both of which are useful...and also if you have a piece of art in your house, you may not look at it every day and be like "hey, thats a really useful piece of art." but you can respect it...making it useful.

BrittneyW said...

Kenzie-
I agree with you, I think Dorian is done being manipulated. I think Lord Henry manipulated him, but now Dorian has gone on to do the same thing. He manipulated Alan into destroying Basil's body, so I think he has learned almost the ropes from Lord Henry.

EricL2009 said...

Makenzie: Isn't that still manipulating him though? Eventhough he is not he has taught and shown Dorian to manipulate other? Since he passed that on is he still kinda manipulating?

Lauren L said...

It seems like in this book random events get thrown in and its a small small scale of society today. The gun getting pulled out can be refered to like a terrorist attack by showing the discontent one society feels towards another.

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: Thats true, they are basically the same person. Honestly, i hope he kills LH because LH is really annoying. I can kind of see Dorian just going stark-raving mad and going on a killing rampage. What do you think he will do?

Kim C. 2010 said...

Going with some of the inner circle: I think that the bigger part of over-analyzing things is the obsession that comes with it. I think that people who over analyze things, and they obsess over it they can't move forward. It is ok to analyze and to try and understand, but it becomes destructive when you start to obsess and to look for things that very well might not be there. I think Wilde really is trying to convey that you should love art you should find it fascinating, however, watch how far you can put yourself into something. This is also evident in the text when Basil is killed by Dorian, what everyone else has said, the creation has killed the creator. This is so prevalent in literature.

So a question is LH going to be destroyed as well, after all he has also created this Dorian Gray?

MackenzieL2009 said...

Shelli: What do you think LH's effect is? Do you think he cares more about him now that time has gone on (remember the dinner party)? If Dorian dies becuase of this stuff do you think LH would feel at all responsible?

EricL2009 said...

Inner circle: This kinda relates back to what I always think that was he even trying to put a point in this book. Did he even have all these messages should we just read this book to read it and not to annalize it so deep?

shellim2009 said...

Eric: I think he will be able to live forever since he can't die of natural causes found in elders. (Alzheimers, heart attacks, stroke, etc.) But can he be killed? Would the only way to kill Dorian be to destroy his painting? After LH dies I think, depending on Dorian's state of mind, he WILL commit suicide BY destroying the portriat. He would be alone by then and I think the book, up to now, has foreshadowed his tragedy.

shellim2009 said...

Anna: But how will he know where to find Dorian? England is a BIG place and Dorian has several homes.

EricL2009 said...

Shelli: I totally agree with you. He will kill himself by destroying the painting AFTER LH is dead.

RickM2009 said...

Mackenzie: I don't see Dorian receiving a chance for redemption. The novel itself has become darker and darker, and giving Dorian to opportunity to "get off easy" is contradictory to the literary genre the book is written in.

KatieO2010 said...

Lauren- that is an intersting connection. I think it is an example of what goes around comes around. Dorian caused the death of Sybil and now her brother is after him. We gave middle easterns (politicaly incorrect I know) guns a while back and now they are killing our soldiers with them. Is Wilde trying to tell us that society is essentialy screwing itself over by our actions?

Sarah- I don't know what will happen to Dorian before he dies. I think there will be some internal conflict, but he wont be strong enough to break from the path he has chosen.

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: Well...um...okay I think that it's just going to happen. I'm not sure how exactly he will find him but in the end I think that James will kill him. I don't think that Oscar Wilde would've brought in the character if he was really that useless

KatieM2009 said...

Eric: I wonder the same thing as I read this story. I think that Wilde just wanted to create a story for the reader to get lost in. I personally enjoy reading a book just to get lost in the story rather than reading it to find themes and motifs and all the other things English classes require students to find. I see Wilde creating this story just to be read and to be enjoyed rather than to be analyzed by groups.

MackenzieL2009 said...

Shelli: I agree that he will want to destroy the portrait. Eventually he will feel like he is becomeing a slave to the portrait. But what happens if he destroys his soul but he is still alive? Does he only have this chance to start over? CAN he start over?

shellim2009 said...

Kenzie: LH's ideas are so askew that it is difficult to tell what he would and would not do. However, I think that if Dorian were to meet his fate, LH might feel some responsibility. Since Dorian has had all of these friends who have destroyed themselves, LH might feel some pride to being the only person who has remained in Dorian's beautiful good graces the longest. I think he sees it as a contest almost, but he will be crushed when Dorian meets his end... maybe?

shellim2009 said...

Anna: I have nothing more to say on the matter since I read on and know the answer to your real questions. I don't want to ruin for you or others though, therefore my ability to play devil's advocate has run out! :)

KendraS2009 said...

Wilde wrote this book just to make us think. He wrote all these contradictions to make us think through it.

Anna P2009 said...

Shelli: okay fine. I can deal with that. Thank you for not spoiling the ending.

Kim C. 2010 said...

Ugh this discussion is going in circles. Lets talk about something else!

MackenzieL2009 said...

Inner circle: So does Dorian Gray represent Humanity??

EricL2009 said...

Katie: Thank you for someone finally agreeing with me on that. Like did he really mean to put all of this information and all these motifs and what not or did he write this book cause he was in prison and maybe a little mad at society.

shellim2009 said...

Kenzie: It depends on how long he waits before he tries to destroy his corrupt soul. If he waits too long, until he should be old, GRAY, and possibly deat, then he might kill himself. If he tries right away, he might be more succesful in starting over. BUT! Will he be willing to give up his beautiful face for a beautiful soul? I don't think, with his past, he have both.

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: I don't necessarily think that he is just saying that society's actions have consequences. I think Wilde is trying to get across the message that you better watch what you do becuase sooner or later it'll come back around. We should remember that Wilde was in jail for his affair during this book, therefore I think he commenting on his actions and how he regrets them.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- do you really think that Wilde regrets his actions?

KendraS2009 said...

Shelli: I agree that Dorian's outer beauty is way more important to him than his inner beauty. I think that he will want to keep his face beauty rather than have a beautiful soul.

SarahE2010 said...

Katie: well..... no not really. I feel like WIlde is a lot like LH in the fact he does whatever he wants and the consequences are just whatever. But maybe he wants to seem like he regrets them?

KatieM2009 said...

Eric: I think that Wilde wrote this book just because he was bored and in jail and wanted to create something to express himself because he had no other way to express himself in jail.

BrittneyW said...

Shelli and Anna-
I think that James will not have a chance to kill Dorian. I think that Dorian tricked him, so now he will look elsewhere. I think that Dorian will end up driving himself crazy because he thinks James will come get him, but I don't think he will ever get the opportunity to kill him. I think that Dorian will kill himself.

KatieO2010 said...

Sarah- but this book caused an uproar when it came out. Everyone hated him more than ever. If he was trying to appear condolent, he failed.

HaileyM2009 said...

I partially agree with many others when they say that Basil basically led to his own death. He has created this painting that is a perfect representation of Dorian, or of his soul as we found out. While Harry may have been the main one to influence Dorian, Basil only fueled the fire with his compliments and adoration, and in the end his painting, his creation, is the actual murderer. As Shelli mentioned, there was blood on the painting after Basil died. "What was that loathsome red dew that gleamed, wet and glistening, on one of the hands, as though the canvas had sweated blood?" (p. 196) Therefore, Basil’s work of art turned on him when the truth about his soul had been elucidated to him.
However, when Dorian has the scientist get rid of Basil’s body I don’t think it was to hide his past. What makes this sin so different than the rest of Dorian’s wrongdoings? He has lived a very corrupted life, evident from the painting of his soul and society’s reactions to him, but this new bad deed must have crossed some line in Dorian’s head. What made this so different from everything else?
I also think that Dorian could have change if he wanted. Basil tried to prompt Dorian into praying for forgiveness earlier but Dorian thinks it’s too late. Later in the book he attempts to be good but sees no change in his “soul”. However, his path of destructiveness and wickedness did not come out over night and neither would the change to being good. Yes, he is capable of change, but his relationships and lifestyle and past have not set up an easy road for him.
As far as the painting goes, he obviously can’t destroy it without destroying himself (as we learn at the end of the book), but since when do people get clean slates after they mess up? He would have to work to gradually fix what’s on his own slate.

Steven W said...

I don't agree that Basil led to his own demise because even though he created the painting, it was by Lord Henry's influence that Dorian realized that his youth would fade and the picture would remain constant. Dorian trades his soul to remain forever young because of Lord Henry's influence. It is a result of Dorian’s choice to follow the influence of Lord Henry that eventually causes the death of Basil. Dorian kills Basil because he saw his true self and the beautiful and soulless Dorian couldn't allow the truth about his own identity to be discovered. As far as hiding his past in many ways Dorian did simply by never showing a change in his character or appearance. With respect to Basil's body I think that Dorian was beginning to feel the weight of his conscience since the picture had turned so vile in appear and he simply couldn't deal with the guilt of killing his friend.