Do you see any connections between the defintion of narcissism and Dorian Gray?
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy." [1]
The narcissist is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power and prestige.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness.
I agree with molly, and to expand off of that. So as Dorian loses his innocence he loses his beauty, so does that say that there is only beauty in innocence?
At the beginning of the chapter, Dorian is talking to Henry's Wife Victoria about music, does this communicate a message of aestheticism in sound? the beauty in feeling of music...
Inner circle/Molly's Comment: The idea of Dorian losing his innocence and beauty also comes from the ideas that Wilde presented in the preface. When we can't see our own faults, we start seeing them in others. The painting is reflecting what Dorian can't see in his normal reflection.
AnneS: As the stroy goes on it becomes obvious that Dorian is becoming very aware of how others view him and it's making him a very egotistical person. He is becoming more of a narcissist because he is seeing his inner persponality more clearly now.
In Chapter 4, Lord Henry tells Dorian, "Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are." Do you think this is somehow a reflection on Wilde since he is truly an artist?
Lauren- but even if he recognizes it, does he do anything about it or about what others are saying of him? Is that more validation for being a narcicisst?
I agree with Anna(inner circle) it is extremely hard to connect with people who have walls up, and don't respond well to you. The raw emotion is much more attractive and easy to talk to.
I think that Sibyl is very much the dramatic actress. Emotions rule what she does in her real life just how it does when she acts. She lives with her head in the clouds and not in reality, so when she learns Dorian's name and when he doesn't want to see her anymore it brings her down to earth and she can't pretend the situation is just another one of her plays.
Irene: I agree with you and Molly. This relates to Smith's comment about Brittney Spears in our last fish bowl. Dorian is at first a very innocent nice man but as society/people start to show Dorian the faults in the world, he begins to see the faults in others and ignore his own flaws. Very self-centered.
AnneS- I think that the fact that Sibyl is still beautiful no matter whom she plays makes appeals Dorian. He wants to find a way that he can be beautiful always and here is this girl who is beautiful no matter what.
What is Wilde trying to say about marriage and relationships through the two marriages that are depicted in the book: Lord Henry and his wife, Dorian and Sybil?
I think Sibyl is so appealing to Dorian beacause to him she is perfection, a perfect match for him. To him, she embodies all of the "perfect women" dipicted in plays like Juliet. I think he is also jolted into reality when she becomes a real person with normal traits. He thinks too much of himself to be able to love a mundane person, he thinks he deserves a perfect woman to match his perfect self.
AnneS-I think that Sibyl is so apealing to Dorian because she isnt a high society lady. Everyone would think it was depicable for Dorian to date down so much, and I think he likes that. He found something in a place full of nothings...and I think that he thought he would benefit when he made her famous.
AnneS: I think Dorian likes Sibyl because in a way he can connect to her. Unlike the other charaters like Lord Henry and Basil, Sible doesn't come from the highest part of society. She also is still innocent which Dorian can relate to.
AnneS: In response to your first post--I think Dorian is growing into one of the purest examples of narcissim. As Harry says in Chapter, Dorian is "premature," and therefore very easily influenced. He has only know people who completely worship him and I believe this will become a necessity, if not an addicition. What other reaction is a young "beautiful" boy supposed to have when he is constantly being told how awesome he is? He is clearly going to become dependant on his own grand ideas of himself, which are directly connected to the opinions of those who have infulenced him the most. As he grows more important in his own mind, other's opinions will comparitvely shrink.
brittney: Oscar Wilde put a lot of himself into this book I believe. You see it in characters and everytime they talk about artists I imagine that Wilde was writing these things to defend his actions and himself as an artist.
Anne s. Sybil is so appealing to Dorian because she is beautiful in appearance like Dorian. I believe that she has a level of intrigue to Dorian because her art (her acting) has a similar effect as Dorian's Portrait of representing something that the person is not. This notion supports the idea that true beuaty can't be represented by physical beauty.
annes: It seems that marriages aren't necessarily a good thing. Everything Harry says about marriage involves secrecy and deception, with very little love left. Then, with Dorian and Sibyl, their engagement could never come to a marriage because it fell apart even before that time. So, I think Wilde is saying there isn't much to draw from marriage, and if there is it is really only negative.
Anne S: I think that Sibyl is so appealing to Dorian because she reminds him of himself. Here he thinks that he is the most beautiful thing that has ever walked the planet, and all of the sudden this girl appears that is very beautiful herself.
AnneS: The way Lord Henry's marriage is described doesnt apear that the two of them are in love. They seem to have a distant weak relationship. Sibyl and Dorian have seemed to actually fall in love. As of now they are both innocent and pure but I fear that Dorian is going to completly lose his innocence and then lose Sibyl.
Annes: I feel that Wilde feels marriage is kind of poinless, like a fling that you get bored with. He doesn't seem to treat it as much as a commitment, or even something important. It appears that marriage is just something he does just for the heck of it.
I love the juxtaposition (yay! i used it correctly!) of rich and poor between Dorian and Sybil. Lord Henry is extremely fascinated by Dorian's psychology, and the fact that he is trying to experience new things. Beauty in psychology as well.
I think Dorian is so attracted to Sibyl because she is the counterpart of himself. He sees her as a work of art, like his portrait. I can see the story playing out as Dorian's narcissistic nature causing him to try and 'collect' all the beauty he finds in life.
Is Lord Henry a cancer? a cancer in meaning that he brings others down, he either has a bad attidtude and it spreads through people he meets or even spreads any of his emotions? or could also just like to watch people in discomfort. Is he someone that wants to watch the world durn?
Shelli: I think it's interesting how in our society we think love is perfection, but it seems Wilde doesn't think so, he doesn't see it as art and doesn't think it's worth anything. This is kind of like Ophelia and Hamlet, both Ophelia and Sibyl loved their "prince charming"s but Hamlet and Dorian came out of their fit of love and decided it was worthless.
AnneS: I think that all of them see beauty in perfection. Dorian wants to stay perfect for his whole life. Basil paints people perfectly because that is what is beautiful to him. Lord Henry believes that people can't be perfect forever and that is the downfall to being human. And Sibyl sees Dorian as perfection (Like Anna said, "Prince Charming") and that without Dorian (perfection) life isn't worth living.
Basically, I feel that every character we have seen so far is selfish and impractical.
Annes- I think that Wilde is truly saying how pointless marriage is through the character of Lord Henry. Lord Henry is the only main character who is married and he is the one who seems most against it. "Never marry at all, Dorian. Men marry because they are tired, women, because they are curious; both are disappointed." I think this is trying to say something about Oscar Wilde's feelings on marriage. This relates to his background since Wilde was married and was unhappy with his relationship since he had an affair.
Inner Circle Drew and Rick Lord Henry also likes the power and influence. Basil I feel is more interested in Dorian. Lord Henry's interest lies in his ability to control and manipulate Dorian and Basil as well
AnneS: Once she starts acting badly Dorian is embarrassed and disappointed in her. She didn't portray Juliet well at all (I believe that is because she now knows what love is like and she cannot show love toward her fellow actor Romeo when her's is in the audience) and Dorian was saying things like, "I hope she is sick" because he is searching for a way to describe how ugly she has all of a sudden become to him.
JakeF: I think that Henry is a cancer, though everyone else (accept maybe Basil) hasn't realised that his influence is, in fact, negative. He definitly hooks people with his controversial epigrams and views and his "cancer" has clearly infested all of Dorian Gray's being.
Inner-circle/Tom: Like Tom said about the battle over Dorian being a struggle between good and evil. With what we have learned about, will good triumph over evil?
Kenzie: What was it that brought the romanticism out of Dorian and Hamlet? Or was it just a testosterone surge that should have put the two into anger management, not really meaning anything. Did Dorian and Hamlet just need some time to calm down before they dealt with Ophelia and Sibyl? I agree with you in that love is portrayed much differently by Wilde then how we see it, but what would take the 'fairy tale' out of love?
Eric- I got there first :) but yes the relationship between James and Sibyl is almost identical to Ophelia and Laertes. Laertes and James are the overprotective older brothers, both of which are leaving yes unsure of whether that is really the best decision because the love of their sister's life cannot be trusted.
Adrienne: I think that Sibyl will develop more feelings for Dorain,not because her brother does not like him, but she will completely ignore what her brother has said, she is blinded by love and she does not want to hear that her brother does not like Dorian.
Inner Circle Jordan Even though Basil created the portrait Lord Henry showed Dorian the truth that Dorian will age and the Portrait won't I agree with Pat Dorian is the villian because he allows himself to be manipulated by Lord Henry. Even Though Lord Henry influences Dorian it is still Dorian's choice to act ot not.
I agree the Dorian is the villian in the story. He is so easily corrupted by Lord Henry but doesn't really know how to think for himself which is what I think Wilde is trying to express as a problem in society. He made a point of telling the readers that all art is useless and it is worthless to look into it. This is exactly what Dorian is doing. He is wasting all of his time listening to what others tell him and looking into what he has been told.
Jake: I do think that Lord Henry is a cancer. In the first chapter he brought Dorian down by telling him that he won't be beautiful forever and that people once love him once his first wrinkle comes in. This brings Dorian down from the "high" that Basil put him on during the painting session. I also think that Lord Henry does it to make himself feel better, it sounds childish, but that's how he comes across to me at this point.
"He says things that annoy me. He gives me good advice." This is something that Dorian said about Basil. What do you guys think about this? What does this say about Dorian, and who hes becoming?
Lord Henry discusses the antagonistic quality of selfishness, but Dorian's "love" for Sibyl proves his statement wrong, because Dorian believes in selflessness through love. Also Lord Henry says something about Nature dictating the pursuit of happiness...what do you think this means?
Shelli: I think that reality takes the fairy tale quality out of love. The "fairy tale love" is innocent and perfect, but when you add reality, wordly concerns take the place of unicorns and rainbows. Dorian might have been able to love Sibyl before he was "corrupted" by Lord Henry's ideas and his self-absorbtion with his own beauty.
Mollyp: Dorian is becoming exactly what Basil feared most. He is becoming more like Lord Henry. Since he has spent most of his time with Harry, his ideas and influences are becoming a part of Dorian, which is exactly what Basil didn't want, but yet exactly what he gave away with Dorian's name.
Molly: I think Dorian has relized that the best advice is the advice that we dont want to hear. Although this quote proves that Dorian is starting to lose his innocence, he is starting to grow in his ability to see the wrongs in the world. He is no longer oblivious.
Mollyp- I believe that quote you just pointed out truly shows that Lord Henry is feeding Dorian with his views. I really feeling like he is brain washing Dorian to be exactly like him.
What is the connection between Dorian Gray and hedonism and how will hedonism develop in Dorian's life? What made hedonism a prominent part of Dorian's life?
Molly P: I think that we are starting to see what Dorian is really after. To me he seems like a social climber, he will do what ever it takes to reach the top. I think that Basil is was the first of many that Dorian has and will use to climb to the top of the social latter.
Molly- I think alot of the time we find advice significant if it shocks us and I think that is what dorian is saying in that quote. I think the more he learns from Henry the more he easier he believes him and the harder he believes anyone else.
Molly: I think what this says about who Dorian is becoming is that Lord Henry has had a strong infuence on him because in chapter 1 or 2 Lord Henry had said something similar about his aunt. So I think that slowly Dorian is becoming more and more like Lord Henry.
Steve W- Although Dorian allows himself to be influenced..does that truely make him evil because he is not creating these thougts or making these choices himself, he has someone else feeding him the idea. Ya Dorian is not strong enough to protect himself from being manipulated, but does that make him evil with out creating these thoughts and ideas?
Inner Circle Based on what Lauren said Does the portrait change not to show Dorian his flaws but because Basil's impression of Dorian changes as Lord Henry influences him and as his true self comes out?
Will: I feel like Wilde is telling us that "the pursuit of happiness" can only be achieved through selflessness. When someone is so self absorbed in themselves they will never feel true happiness through love.
Kenzie: Are you saying the destruction of the picture could bring peace again? Now that Dorian realizes his beauty and potential, isn't he transformed, unable to return to his innocent self?
Do you think Henry had a similar background as Dorian Gray? He clearly lives for the pursuit of pleasure and values beauty, etc. He is making Dorian become like this, but what made him that way?
Mackenzie: That is an awesome conection! I did not even think of that and now that you say that it makes perfect sense. I agree that there is a possibility that the picture of Dorian Gray is the villan not Dorian Gray himself, or anyone else.
KatieM Even though Dorian didn't create the thought that Lord Henry is chnaging Dorian. Dorian has the ability to choose who and to what extent they influence him. Dorian makes the concious choice to follow Lord Henry's influence.
Shelli: Hmmm. I think that Lord Henry is planting the narcissistic ideas into Dorian's head. Maybe in the beginning and after he became a little narcisstic he was still not brought into reality... maybe his head just swiched clouds... if that makes any sense.
Lauren (inner cirlce): I agree, I feel like Basil is completely in love with Dorian. Like you said in the beggining of the book he spoke like he had a secret that he didn't want anyone to know. I thought in the first couple pages that Basil was very obsessed with Dorian, he seemed to me to be really in love with him.
Kenzie: Kiiiinda. But not really. :) But I think that his narcissim is causing him to be less beautiful. As he says and does things that are not ideal, his portrait or his soul, changes to be more ugly.
Lauren: Exactly, it seems like this selfishness is manifested in Dorian. If someone is so self-absorbed they can never see the true beauty in anything because they will only think about how that affects them and not how it is in reality, just like Dorian's 'love' for Sibyl
Kenzie- I think that the picture might as well be the villian as Lord Henry is. The picture has given him a more narcisistic approach to life that he did not have. It seems like it is kind of destroying him. However, I think Lord Henry is still one of the villians for his manipulative power he puts over Dorian and his referring to him as "a study". He does not truly care about Dorian and to me that defines a villian.
The creation of the evil thought is not what makes someone evil it is the action. By acting out based on Lord Henry's influence Dorian chooses to allow Lord Henry to control him. He is so concerned about his own appearance and how others he is willing to do anything that he thinks will keep him young. Is obsession with his own phyiscal beauty is what makes him evil.
The portrait could be the villain but one could say that since Basil painted it Basil is still the villain. "The artist is the creator of beautiful things" To Basil this is a beautiful thing. The real Dorian Gray was beautiful.
Innercircle: As the painting "changes", does this prove that beauty at first sight can have such a great affect on us that after when we see that "beauty" again it isnt the same? In other words does this show how Dorian is first seen as a flawless inncocent man but as we read more into him, his beauty starts to fade.
Adrienne: I agree that we always want more than we have, but I disagree in the fact that it makes us happy. Happiness can not always be found in getting exactly what we want all the time, in fact sometimes it just leaves you empty, and more unhappy than before.
Steven- But do we know that he has the concious choice? Have you ever been influenced by someone around you wtihout noticing that you are letting this person influence you. Does Dorian know that he is being influenced or does he have a blind eye to that?
Hailey- That's a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry was once beautiful, then he was influenced, got currupted and now he's doing the same thing to Dorian. And I'm not saying that he's doing it just out of spite. I think that he thinks that he saw the light and now he's just trying to help Dorian see the light.
Why do you think that Dorian is heart broken when Sibyl is suddenly bad at acting? Do you think Dorian has any connection to feelings or personality or is it just beauty? Do you think he acts this way to impress Lord Henry? or is this truley who he is?
Sara: I think that Dorian is heartbroken when he finds out because Dorian is so used to beauty and when the bad acting makes an impression of ugliness in Dorian, he finds that his love for beauty is stronger than his love for Sibyl.
Katie He may have a blind eye to Lord Henry's influence. However by not realizing what Lord Henry is doing is Dorian's flaw. Dorian is so obsessed with his own beauty that he chooses not to see how Lord Henry is using him. Dorian begins to see Lord Henry's influence when he doesn't open the letter but still inevitablely returns to Lord Henry.
Kaitlan: I agree with you. What we want in life seems to be and endless cycle. People always want what they don't have. When they finally get it, they find something new. In fact, I agree that happiness cannot be achieved though buying what we want rather than finding happiness in those around us.
Katie- To your question, I do not think that Dorian has any idea that he is being influenced. I think he does not even know who he truly is so I dont think that he can recognized he is being changed.
If art is beauty, what does it mean that the portrait will keep getting uglier as Dorian changes? Will the portrait still be beautiful? Will it still be art?
"Remember who you are."-SMITH!!! i think that relates perfectly to what is happening in the story-the fact that Dorian is changing dramatically and trying new things, but he is beginning to forget who he really is. This also relates to acting because in the fantasy of drama and theatre, one may find themselves forgetting who they truly are because they're always playing someone completely different.
It never really said in the book if Sibyl actually killed herself or if it was an accident. Why would she kill herself if he asked her to marry him two days before she died?
Sara B: From the beginning I have thought that Dorian liked Sibyl, because she reminded him of himself. Now he realizes she is nothing like him, and it appears like he is disgusted. It seems to him, the only important thing is beauty.
Sarah- I think Dorian stopped loving Sybil because he is more in love with the idea of love. I think acting was something he connected to because it had so much emotion and fantasy and her acting expressed that. I also think he might be heartbroken over her because she said she didn’t need to act anymore because she is feeling the reality of love and I think he is embarrassed because her bad acting reflects their false love.
Adrienne: Dorian's head is way to clouded over with his own narcissim along with Lord Henry's ideas to think about that night let alone his distant future.
So if Dorian is all alone at the end of the book... where will the rest of the characters be? do you think that Dorian will have pushed them away because they are not longer beautiful, or do you think that they will be the ones to abanden Dorian because he only cares for himself?
Adrienne: I don't think Dorian does realize where he is headed. He is too wrapped up in his vanity, and perfection to notice anything else that is going on.
adrienne i think your very right, he sees it and doesnt know what to do. However not that sibyl has died, will that impact him enough to change? It seems as though he has gotten over it but it seems as though chaos provokes change.
Mackenzie: Great question! Art not only has outer beauty but the meaning behind the art is beauty in itself. The physical painting will not change however the meaning that Basil put into his painting may change as Basil’s view of Dorian changes. If Basil finds his painting of Dorian to be ugly, it may not be considered a work of art to him anymore. The amount of beauty within the painting depends on its viewer.
Adrienne: Thats a good quote! Could it also mean that the painting isn't really changing but Dorian is seeing himself in the painting and seeing how its affecting him since no one else sees it.
SaraB-this is an interesting question...I think it may be a combination of the two. I think it seems like it is becoming increasingly difficult for Dorian to be impressed by others, but the people close to him see how he's changing. Its also interesting to think about, will Lord henry become bored with Dorian? he is a delightful project now, but Lord Henry doesnt seem to keep interest in things for too long.
In the preface, why do you think Wilde had so much of the focus on art? Should we be focusing more on the picture and look at what that represents, instead of who is the villan and how self absorbed everyone is? What can be related back to the preface?
Sara- I think Dorian falls out of love when she acts badly because he truly did not know her. The only thing he knew about her is that she was a good actress. He thought she was perfect and when he found out she wasnt, he thought she had no value.
A Good quote that could help to decide how women are viewed, "But beauty, real beauty, ends where an intellectual expression begins" Women are around to look at. Once they open their mouths they lose that beauty.
Annes (first comment): I think that Dorian is a real Narcissist, just because of the way he handled the situation with Sybil. He may have acted righeous by writing the apology note, but really he was looking for self-forgiveness, and after writiing that letter he felt like he had been forgiven. That idea of self-gratification, is definately present in Dorian.
mollyp2010 said... speaking of sibyl and her family...do you guys think there will be consequences for what dorian did? Do you think that her brother was serious?
I think that Sybil's brother won't even know about Sybil's death until it is too late. He's on a trip, and I'm not quite sure his mother would even be able to tell him Dorian's name. I'm sure her brother was serious about what he would do, however it seems unlikely that he would ever be able to carry out his actions, however maybe that will be Dorian's Downfall.
annes said... What is beauty to Dorian? to Basil? to Lord Henry? to Sybil?
That is a really good question... I think Dorian is still in pursuit of Beauty, he is not sure what is really art until he sees Sybil act, however when she performs poorly, he loses interest, suggesting that the art must be ever prevalently intiriguing. Dorian has a ADD for art unless it is really capturing he will be lost.
I think Basil is different however, he sees art in people's faces, and in scenery around him. I think that he finds beauty in a much wider area than Lord Henry and Dorian. He seems more to be about the beauty of the world, rather that a small piece.
Lord Henry seems the type who will never truelly speak his mind. He will talk for aeons about anything and everything, but I think he keeps the really good things, like Dorian (and his plans for him) a secret.
Going along with that one question I have is:
Why does Lord Henry have such a fascination with Dorian? How do we see this relationship changing as the story progresses, and Dorian begins to change?
128 comments:
What happpens to Sibyl once she learns Dorian's name?
Do you see any connections between the defintion of narcissism and Dorian Gray?
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy." [1]
The narcissist is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power and prestige.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness.
I agree with molly, and to expand off of that. So as Dorian loses his innocence he loses his beauty, so does that say that there is only beauty in innocence?
At the beginning of the chapter, Dorian is talking to Henry's Wife Victoria about music, does this communicate a message of aestheticism in sound? the beauty in feeling of music...
Shelli-
Sibyl is introduced into reality. She can no longer live the fantasy she once thought was her Prince Charming
In Chapter 5 do you agree that the relationship that Sibyl has with her mother and brother are like Ophelia's relationship with Leartes and Polonius?
Anna- fabulous connection! I am so proud of you!
Inner circle/Molly's Comment: The idea of Dorian losing his innocence and beauty also comes from the ideas that Wilde presented in the preface. When we can't see our own faults, we start seeing them in others. The painting is reflecting what Dorian can't see in his normal reflection.
AnneS: As the stroy goes on it becomes obvious that Dorian is becoming very aware of how others view him and it's making him a very egotistical person. He is becoming more of a narcissist because he is seeing his inner persponality more clearly now.
Will: I think you're on to something. Wilde mentions music in the preface. Music is a different art. It is a universal language.
In Chapter 4, Lord Henry tells Dorian, "Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are." Do you think this is somehow a reflection on Wilde since he is truly an artist?
Lauren- but even if he recognizes it, does he do anything about it or about what others are saying of him? Is that more validation for being a narcicisst?
speaking of sibyl and her family...do you guys think there will be consequences for what dorian did? Do you think that her brother was serious?
I agree with Anna(inner circle) it is extremely hard to connect with people who have walls up, and don't respond well to you. The raw emotion is much more attractive and easy to talk to.
Why is Sibyl so appealing to Dorian?
Will- Yes. It looks like Wilde plans on touching on EVERY thing he considers art and the beauty in it. And music definitely is art
I think that Sibyl is very much the dramatic actress. Emotions rule what she does in her real life just how it does when she acts. She lives with her head in the clouds and not in reality, so when she learns Dorian's name and when he doesn't want to see her anymore it brings her down to earth and she can't pretend the situation is just another one of her plays.
Irene: I agree with you and Molly. This relates to Smith's comment about Brittney Spears in our last fish bowl. Dorian is at first a very innocent nice man but as society/people start to show Dorian the faults in the world, he begins to see the faults in others and ignore his own flaws. Very self-centered.
AnneS- I think that the fact that Sibyl is still beautiful no matter whom she plays makes appeals Dorian. He wants to find a way that he can be beautiful always and here is this girl who is beautiful no matter what.
What is Wilde trying to say about marriage and relationships through the two marriages that are depicted in the book: Lord Henry and his wife, Dorian and Sybil?
I think Sibyl is so appealing to Dorian beacause to him she is perfection, a perfect match for him. To him, she embodies all of the "perfect women" dipicted in plays like Juliet. I think he is also jolted into reality when she becomes a real person with normal traits. He thinks too much of himself to be able to love a mundane person, he thinks he deserves a perfect woman to match his perfect self.
AnneS-I think that Sibyl is so apealing to Dorian because she isnt a high society lady. Everyone would think it was depicable for Dorian to date down so much, and I think he likes that. He found something in a place full of nothings...and I think that he thought he would benefit when he made her famous.
AnneS: I think Dorian likes Sibyl because in a way he can connect to her. Unlike the other charaters like Lord Henry and Basil, Sible doesn't come from the highest part of society. She also is still innocent which Dorian can relate to.
AnneS: In response to your first post--I think Dorian is growing into one of the purest examples of narcissim. As Harry says in Chapter, Dorian is "premature," and therefore very easily influenced. He has only know people who completely worship him and I believe this will become a necessity, if not an addicition. What other reaction is a young "beautiful" boy supposed to have when he is constantly being told how awesome he is? He is clearly going to become dependant on his own grand ideas of himself, which are directly connected to the opinions of those who have infulenced him the most. As he grows more important in his own mind, other's opinions will comparitvely shrink.
Anna- but what about when she begins acting badly? What about when she portrays Juliet? What happens to Dorian and Sybil then?
What is beauty to Dorian? to Basil? to Lord Henry? to Sybil?
brittney: Oscar Wilde put a lot of himself into this book I believe. You see it in characters and everytime they talk about artists I imagine that Wilde was writing these things to defend his actions and himself as an artist.
Outter cirlce: Does there seem to be a very close with sibyl and the way James is very protective of her to Leartes and Ophelia?
Anne s.
Sybil is so appealing to Dorian because she is beautiful in appearance like Dorian. I believe that she has a level of intrigue to Dorian because her art (her acting) has a similar effect as Dorian's Portrait of representing something that the person is not. This notion supports the idea that true beuaty can't be represented by physical beauty.
annes: It seems that marriages aren't necessarily a good thing. Everything Harry says about marriage involves secrecy and deception, with very little love left. Then, with Dorian and Sibyl, their engagement could never come to a marriage because it fell apart even before that time. So, I think Wilde is saying there isn't much to draw from marriage, and if there is it is really only negative.
Anna you totally stole my idea
Anne S: I think that Sibyl is so appealing to Dorian because she reminds him of himself. Here he thinks that he is the most beautiful thing that has ever walked the planet, and all of the sudden this girl appears that is very beautiful herself.
Was Sibyl playing in Romeo and Juliet when Dorian first meets her a foreshadow to her possible tragedy in the future?
AnneS: The way Lord Henry's marriage is described doesnt apear that the two of them are in love. They seem to have a distant weak relationship. Sibyl and Dorian have seemed to actually fall in love. As of now they are both innocent and pure but I fear that Dorian is going to completly lose his innocence and then lose Sibyl.
Annes: I feel that Wilde feels marriage is kind of poinless, like a fling that you get bored with. He doesn't seem to treat it as much as a commitment, or even something important. It appears that marriage is just something he does just for the heck of it.
I love the juxtaposition (yay! i used it correctly!) of rich and poor between Dorian and Sybil. Lord Henry is extremely fascinated by Dorian's psychology, and the fact that he is trying to experience new things. Beauty in psychology as well.
I think Dorian is so attracted to Sibyl because she is the counterpart of himself. He sees her as a work of art, like his portrait. I can see the story playing out as Dorian's narcissistic nature causing him to try and 'collect' all the beauty he finds in life.
Is Lord Henry a cancer? a cancer in meaning that he brings others down, he either has a bad attidtude and it spreads through people he meets or even spreads any of his emotions? or could also just like to watch people in discomfort. Is he someone that wants to watch the world durn?
Is Syble more motivated to love Dorian now that her brother James has expressed his distaste for the whole situation?
Shelli:
I think it's interesting how in our society we think love is perfection, but it seems Wilde doesn't think so, he doesn't see it as art and doesn't think it's worth anything. This is kind of like Ophelia and Hamlet, both Ophelia and Sibyl loved their "prince charming"s but Hamlet and Dorian came out of their fit of love and decided it was worthless.
AnneS: I think that all of them see beauty in perfection. Dorian wants to stay perfect for his whole life. Basil paints people perfectly because that is what is beautiful to him. Lord Henry believes that people can't be perfect forever and that is the downfall to being human. And Sibyl sees Dorian as perfection (Like Anna said, "Prince Charming") and that without Dorian (perfection) life isn't worth living.
Basically, I feel that every character we have seen so far is selfish and impractical.
****burn (not durn)
Jake F: We see a lot of Wilde in Lord Henry. Does he simply represent the realist?
Annes- I think that Wilde is truly saying how pointless marriage is through the character of Lord Henry. Lord Henry is the only main character who is married and he is the one who seems most against it. "Never marry at all, Dorian. Men marry because they are tired, women, because they are curious; both are disappointed." I think this is trying to say something about Oscar Wilde's feelings on marriage. This relates to his background since Wilde was married and was unhappy with his relationship since he had an affair.
Inner Circle
Drew and Rick
Lord Henry also likes the power and influence. Basil I feel is more interested in Dorian. Lord Henry's interest lies in his ability to control and manipulate Dorian and Basil as well
AnneS:
Once she starts acting badly Dorian is embarrassed and disappointed in her. She didn't portray Juliet well at all (I believe that is because she now knows what love is like and she cannot show love toward her fellow actor Romeo when her's is in the audience) and Dorian was saying things like, "I hope she is sick" because he is searching for a way to describe how ugly she has all of a sudden become to him.
Jake- great question about L. Henry being a cancer. Well done!
Everyone else good responses to the marriage question. Keep going.
JakeF: I think that Henry is a cancer, though everyone else (accept maybe Basil) hasn't realised that his influence is, in fact, negative. He definitly hooks people with his controversial epigrams and views and his "cancer" has clearly infested all of Dorian Gray's being.
Anyone who makes a connection with Hamlet: I see it too! James is protective of his siter like Laertes.
Inner-circle/Tom: Like Tom said about the battle over Dorian being a struggle between good and evil. With what we have learned about, will good triumph over evil?
Kenzie: What was it that brought the romanticism out of Dorian and Hamlet? Or was it just a testosterone surge that should have put the two into anger management, not really meaning anything. Did Dorian and Hamlet just need some time to calm down before they dealt with Ophelia and Sibyl? I agree with you in that love is portrayed much differently by Wilde then how we see it, but what would take the 'fairy tale' out of love?
Eric- I got there first :)
but yes the relationship between James and Sibyl is almost identical to Ophelia and Laertes. Laertes and James are the overprotective older brothers, both of which are leaving yes unsure of whether that is really the best decision because the love of their sister's life cannot be trusted.
LaurenB: I dont think that good will will over evil. The overall tone of the book seems so morbid and dreary, I think that evil will win.
Adrienne: I think that Sibyl will develop more feelings for Dorain,not because her brother does not like him, but she will completely ignore what her brother has said, she is blinded by love and she does not want to hear that her brother does not like Dorian.
Bwalk: Would you say Dorian started out as a tool and now is in control of his future?
Inner Circle
Jordan
Even though Basil created the portrait Lord Henry showed Dorian the truth that Dorian will age and the Portrait won't I agree with Pat Dorian is the villian because he allows himself to be manipulated by Lord Henry. Even Though Lord Henry influences Dorian it is still Dorian's choice to act ot not.
I agree the Dorian is the villian in the story. He is so easily corrupted by Lord Henry but doesn't really know how to think for himself which is what I think Wilde is trying to express as a problem in society. He made a point of telling the readers that all art is useless and it is worthless to look into it. This is exactly what Dorian is doing. He is wasting all of his time listening to what others tell him and looking into what he has been told.
Jake: I do think that Lord Henry is a cancer. In the first chapter he brought Dorian down by telling him that he won't be beautiful forever and that people once love him once his first wrinkle comes in. This brings Dorian down from the "high" that Basil put him on during the painting session. I also think that Lord Henry does it to make himself feel better, it sounds childish, but that's how he comes across to me at this point.
"He says things that annoy me. He gives me good advice." This is something that Dorian said about Basil. What do you guys think about this? What does this say about Dorian, and who hes becoming?
Jordan: Are you asking how Basil validates himself through his art?
Lord Henry discusses the antagonistic quality of selfishness, but Dorian's "love" for Sibyl proves his statement wrong, because Dorian believes in selflessness through love. Also Lord Henry says something about Nature dictating the pursuit of happiness...what do you think this means?
Shelli:
I think that reality takes the fairy tale quality out of love. The "fairy tale love" is innocent and perfect, but when you add reality, wordly concerns take the place of unicorns and rainbows. Dorian might have been able to love Sibyl before he was "corrupted" by Lord Henry's ideas and his self-absorbtion with his own beauty.
Mollyp: Dorian is becoming exactly what Basil feared most. He is becoming more like Lord Henry. Since he has spent most of his time with Harry, his ideas and influences are becoming a part of Dorian, which is exactly what Basil didn't want, but yet exactly what he gave away with Dorian's name.
Molly: I think Dorian has relized that the best advice is the advice that we dont want to hear. Although this quote proves that Dorian is starting to lose his innocence, he is starting to grow in his ability to see the wrongs in the world. He is no longer oblivious.
Mollyp- I believe that quote you just pointed out truly shows that Lord Henry is feeding Dorian with his views. I really feeling like he is brain washing Dorian to be exactly like him.
What is the connection between Dorian Gray and hedonism and how will hedonism develop in Dorian's life? What made hedonism a prominent part of Dorian's life?
Molly P: I think that we are starting to see what Dorian is really after. To me he seems like a social climber, he will do what ever it takes to reach the top. I think that Basil is was the first of many that Dorian has and will use to climb to the top of the social latter.
Molly- I think alot of the time we find advice significant if it shocks us and I think that is what dorian is saying in that quote. I think the more he learns from Henry the more he easier he believes him and the harder he believes anyone else.
Molly: I think what this says about who Dorian is becoming is that Lord Henry has had a strong infuence on him because in chapter 1 or 2 Lord Henry had said something similar about his aunt. So I think that slowly Dorian is becoming more and more like Lord Henry.
Could the picture be the villian of the story? It looms behind everything that happens and seems to manipulate Dorian almost as much as Lord Henry.
Steve W- Although Dorian allows himself to be influenced..does that truely make him evil because he is not creating these thougts or making these choices himself, he has someone else feeding him the idea. Ya Dorian is not strong enough to protect himself from being manipulated, but does that make him evil with out creating these thoughts and ideas?
Kenzie: So you are saying that the reality is Dorian's pride and narcisism? Or is it Lord Henry's philosophies influencing Dorian to be narcisistic?
Inner Circle
Based on what Lauren said
Does the portrait change not to show Dorian his flaws but because Basil's impression of Dorian changes as Lord Henry influences him and as his true self comes out?
Will: I feel like Wilde is telling us that "the pursuit of happiness" can only be achieved through selflessness. When someone is so self absorbed in themselves they will never feel true happiness through love.
Kenzie: Are you saying the destruction of the picture could bring peace again? Now that Dorian realizes his beauty and potential, isn't he transformed, unable to return to his innocent self?
Arguments could be made for either possibility, but I believe it is showing Dorian his own flaws because he is the observer.
Do you think Henry had a similar background as Dorian Gray? He clearly lives for the pursuit of pleasure and values beauty, etc. He is making Dorian become like this, but what made him that way?
Mackenzie: That is an awesome conection! I did not even think of that and now that you say that it makes perfect sense. I agree that there is a possibility that the picture of Dorian Gray is the villan not Dorian Gray himself, or anyone else.
KatieM
Even though Dorian didn't create the thought that Lord Henry is chnaging Dorian. Dorian has the ability to choose who and to what extent they influence him. Dorian makes the concious choice to follow Lord Henry's influence.
Shelli:
Hmmm. I think that Lord Henry is planting the narcissistic ideas into Dorian's head. Maybe in the beginning and after he became a little narcisstic he was still not brought into reality... maybe his head just swiched clouds... if that makes any sense.
Lauren B: Don't we find happiness in obtaining more of what we want? Don't we always want more than what we currently have?
Lauren (inner cirlce): I agree, I feel like Basil is completely in love with Dorian. Like you said in the beggining of the book he spoke like he had a secret that he didn't want anyone to know. I thought in the first couple pages that Basil was very obsessed with Dorian, he seemed to me to be really in love with him.
Kenzie: I agree. It comes down to survival of the fittest. It makes sense for humans to be selfish in the effort of self gain.
Kenzie: Kiiiinda. But not really. :) But I think that his narcissim is causing him to be less beautiful. As he says and does things that are not ideal, his portrait or his soul, changes to be more ugly.
Lauren: Exactly, it seems like this selfishness is manifested in Dorian. If someone is so self-absorbed they can never see the true beauty in anything because they will only think about how that affects them and not how it is in reality, just like Dorian's 'love' for Sibyl
Kenzie-
I think that the picture might as well be the villian as Lord Henry is. The picture has given him a more narcisistic approach to life that he did not have. It seems like it is kind of destroying him. However, I think Lord Henry is still one of the villians for his manipulative power he puts over Dorian and his referring to him as "a study". He does not truly care about Dorian and to me that defines a villian.
The creation of the evil thought is not what makes someone evil it is the action. By acting out based on Lord Henry's influence Dorian chooses to allow Lord Henry to control him. He is so concerned about his own appearance and how others he is willing to do anything that he thinks will keep him young. Is obsession with his own phyiscal beauty is what makes him evil.
The portrait could be the villain but one could say that since Basil painted it Basil is still the villain. "The artist is the creator of beautiful things" To Basil this is a beautiful thing. The real Dorian Gray was beautiful.
Innercircle: As the painting "changes", does this prove that beauty at first sight can have such a great affect on us that after when we see that "beauty" again it isnt the same? In other words does this show how Dorian is first seen as a flawless inncocent man but as we read more into him, his beauty starts to fade.
Adrienne: I agree that we always want more than we have, but I disagree in the fact that it makes us happy. Happiness can not always be found in getting exactly what we want all the time, in fact sometimes it just leaves you empty, and more unhappy than before.
Steven- But do we know that he has the concious choice? Have you ever been influenced by someone around you wtihout noticing that you are letting this person influence you. Does Dorian know that he is being influenced or does he have a blind eye to that?
Hailey- That's a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry was once beautiful, then he was influenced, got currupted and now he's doing the same thing to Dorian. And I'm not saying that he's doing it just out of spite. I think that he thinks that he saw the light and now he's just trying to help Dorian see the light.
Kaitlin: Happiness is temporary?
Why do you think that Dorian is heart broken when Sibyl is suddenly bad at acting? Do you think Dorian has any connection to feelings or personality or is it just beauty? Do you think he acts this way to impress Lord Henry? or is this truley who he is?
Sara: I think that Dorian is heartbroken when he finds out because Dorian is so used to beauty and when the bad acting makes an impression of ugliness in Dorian, he finds that his love for beauty is stronger than his love for Sibyl.
Molly: Lord Henry is the puppet master?
Katie
He may have a blind eye to Lord Henry's influence. However by not realizing what Lord Henry is doing is Dorian's flaw. Dorian is so obsessed with his own beauty that he chooses not to see how Lord Henry is using him. Dorian begins to see Lord Henry's influence when he doesn't open the letter but still inevitablely returns to Lord Henry.
Kaitlan: I agree with you. What we want in life seems to be and endless cycle. People always want what they don't have. When they finally get it, they find something new. In fact, I agree that happiness cannot be achieved though buying what we want rather than finding happiness in those around us.
Katie-
To your question, I do not think that Dorian has any idea that he is being influenced. I think he does not even know who he truly is so I dont think that he can recognized he is being changed.
Anna:"I shall stay with the real Dorian" Basil stays with the painting... the real Dorian Gray. The more beautiful of the two.
Doesn't Dorian have some sort of idea where he's headed? He's in the fast lane and can't go back.
If art is beauty, what does it mean that the portrait will keep getting uglier as Dorian changes? Will the portrait still be beautiful? Will it still be art?
"Remember who you are."-SMITH!!! i think that relates perfectly to what is happening in the story-the fact that Dorian is changing dramatically and trying new things, but he is beginning to forget who he really is. This also relates to acting because in the fantasy of drama and theatre, one may find themselves forgetting who they truly are because they're always playing someone completely different.
It never really said in the book if Sibyl actually killed herself or if it was an accident. Why would she kill herself if he asked her to marry him two days before she died?
Sara B: From the beginning I have thought that Dorian liked Sibyl, because she reminded him of himself. Now he realizes she is nothing like him, and it appears like he is disgusted. It seems to him, the only important thing is beauty.
Sarah- I think Dorian stopped loving Sybil because he is more in love with the idea of love. I think acting was something he connected to because it had so much emotion and fantasy and her acting expressed that. I also think he might be heartbroken over her because she said she didn’t need to act anymore because she is feeling the reality of love and I think he is embarrassed because her bad acting reflects their false love.
Adrienne: Dorian's head is way to clouded over with his own narcissim along with Lord Henry's ideas to think about that night let alone his distant future.
So if Dorian is all alone at the end of the book... where will the rest of the characters be? do you think that Dorian will have pushed them away because they are not longer beautiful, or do you think that they will be the ones to abanden Dorian because he only cares for himself?
Mackenzie: Is the portrait the art or is Dorian Gray? Or is the beauty in the elucidation of Dorian's true self and not in his mask?
Kenzie: "It is the spectator, not life, that art really mirrors" says that Dorian is aware if the painting is getting uglier.
Adrienne: I don't think Dorian does realize where he is headed. He is too wrapped up in his vanity, and perfection to notice anything else that is going on.
adrienne
i think your very right, he sees it and doesnt know what to do. However not that sibyl has died, will that impact him enough to change? It seems as though he has gotten over it but it seems as though chaos provokes change.
Sara- I think no one really cares about him and same as mentioned in the first fishbowl once they're bored of him they will just forget him.
Bwalk: Who talks the most and says the least? Is Wilde saying women are the worste?
Mackenzie: Great question! Art not only has outer beauty but the meaning behind the art is beauty in itself. The physical painting will not change however the meaning that Basil put into his painting may change as Basil’s view of Dorian changes. If Basil finds his painting of Dorian to be ugly, it may not be considered a work of art to him anymore. The amount of beauty within the painting depends on its viewer.
Adrienne:
Thats a good quote! Could it also mean that the painting isn't really changing but Dorian is seeing himself in the painting and seeing how its affecting him since no one else sees it.
SaraB-this is an interesting question...I think it may be a combination of the two. I think it seems like it is becoming increasingly difficult for Dorian to be impressed by others, but the people close to him see how he's changing. Its also interesting to think about, will Lord henry become bored with Dorian? he is a delightful project now, but Lord Henry doesnt seem to keep interest in things for too long.
In the preface, why do you think Wilde had so much of the focus on art? Should we be focusing more on the picture and look at what that represents, instead of who is the villan and how self absorbed everyone is? What can be related back to the preface?
Sara-
I think Dorian falls out of love when she acts badly because he truly did not know her. The only thing he knew about her is that she was a good actress. He thought she was perfect and when he found out she wasnt, he thought she had no value.
I agree with Kenzie. He covers himself by the screen. So his Dorian screening his real self to the world?
A Good quote that could help to decide how women are viewed, "But beauty, real beauty, ends where an intellectual expression begins" Women are around to look at. Once they open their mouths they lose that beauty.
Annes (first comment): I think that Dorian is a real Narcissist, just because of the way he handled the situation with Sybil. He may have acted righeous by writing the apology note, but really he was looking for self-forgiveness, and after writiing that letter he felt like he had been forgiven. That idea of self-gratification, is definately present in Dorian.
mollyp2010 said...
speaking of sibyl and her family...do you guys think there will be consequences for what dorian did? Do you think that her brother was serious?
I think that Sybil's brother won't even know about Sybil's death until it is too late. He's on a trip, and I'm not quite sure his mother would even be able to tell him Dorian's name. I'm sure her brother was serious about what he would do, however it seems unlikely that he would ever be able to carry out his actions, however maybe that will be Dorian's Downfall.
annes said...
What is beauty to Dorian? to Basil? to Lord Henry? to Sybil?
That is a really good question... I think Dorian is still in pursuit of Beauty, he is not sure what is really art until he sees Sybil act, however when she performs poorly, he loses interest, suggesting that the art must be ever prevalently intiriguing. Dorian has a ADD for art unless it is really capturing he will be lost.
I think Basil is different however, he sees art in people's faces, and in scenery around him. I think that he finds beauty in a much wider area than Lord Henry and Dorian. He seems more to be about the beauty of the world, rather that a small piece.
Lord Henry seems the type who will never truelly speak his mind. He will talk for aeons about anything and everything, but I think he keeps the really good things, like Dorian (and his plans for him) a secret.
Going along with that one question I have is:
Why does Lord Henry have such a fascination with Dorian? How do we see this relationship changing as the story progresses, and Dorian begins to change?
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